Ep 58 Executive Presence

[00:00] Gerrit: I think it's less about the physical appearance, but it is about, as the word actually suggests, executive presence. It has a lot to do with simply being present in the moment. And when my clients ask me, "What can I do to develop executive presence?" We typically start with just that: Being fully engaged in the here and now.

Dear listeners. A warm welcome to episode number 58 of Second Crack, the Leadership Podcast. If you're new to the show, this is where we explore complex leadership dilemmas and paradoxes, and where we invite you as our listener to self-reflect. I am Gerrit Pelzer. I work as an executive coach, and I bring to my coaching a combination of Western science and Asian wisdom. Joining me today, as always, is my dear friend and business partner, Martin Aldergard. Martin specializes in driving change and transformation within organizations, and what we both have in common is that we always put people at the center of our work. Hi, Martin. It's good to be recording with you again today.

[01:28] Martin: Hi, Gerrit. Likewise. And today we have prepared an episode about a topic that is really close to your heart

[01:37] Gerrit: That's right, and that is executive presence. A lot of my coachings are around this aspect of leadership. It is requested a lot, surprisingly a lot, and I come across it in various areas. For instance, when it's about promotions, when it's about influence, or when leading under pressure through uncertainty, quite, quite a lot of applications. So maybe briefly, the promotion aspect is often related to people who are technically brilliant, professionally great, and they may want to advance in their organization. But then when it comes to the next round of promotions, somebody else gets the job, and the feedback these people are receiving is something like, "Yeah, you're, you're doing a great job. It's very reliable," and lots of positive aspects. But then comes this 'but', and this 'but 'is often related to executive presence. "We are not sure if you will be able to influence the board," and similar aspects. Um, when it's about influence, I think about our episode we had with Paul Lawrence when we talked about complexity in leadership. And I remember very well when Paul said, "As a leader, you can't control outcomes, but you can influence." And influence, again, has not only to do with what you say, but it has to do with your executive presence, whether people will, listen to you, whether they think what you say matters. And of course, when it comes to crisis and pressure, during times of crisis, people look at a leader, right. And the question is, is this leader fully present, or is this leader more concerned with their own worries? So there's quite a broad, mm, how should I say, application for executive presence.

[03:40] Martin: So what does it actually mean to be a little bit more specific? I mean, it's not only being seen as a big leader with a nice watch and a nice suit, talking with a confident voice, sitting at the end of the table. What you're saying indicates that there's much more to it than your appearance.

[04:01] Gerrit: Yeah, and at the same time, I think I haven't seen a proper definition for executive presence yet. I think it is also related to charisma, and we may describe it as the impression a leader creates when they enter a room, right? This reminds me of the latest episode we had with Carolyn Hart, where she says, "Your nervous system walks into the room before you do." So immediately when we-- whether we meet somebody for the first time or whether we know a person, the moment we meet, we quickly form a perception about the credibility, the confidence, the leadership potential, and this often happens without our conscious awareness. And this then relates to, do people trust you, uh, as a leader?

[04:55] Martin: And I guess some of this you're born with, some of it you learned when you, as you developed. But I'm also assuming there are skills here to be learned and trained.

[05:07] Gerrit: Yeah, like so often, I think it's both nature and nurture. So we all know people who seem to be born leaders, right? But that doesn't mean that we can only follow these born leaders for who this presence comes naturally. In my experience, executive presence or the perception of it is based on a number of, behaviors and skills, as you said, and that is the good news: everybody can become better at it.

[05:42] Martin: In my viewpoint, I can again distinguish between a leader that when he or she walks in the room or has a meeting with me or with my team, that we feel heard, we feel seen, we feel respected. There is a calmness.

[06:04] Gerrit: Mm-hmm.

[06:04] Martin: There is definitely a pattern in how they behave. It's not only their charisma, and of course the opposite. The leaders that we feel like that it's a steamroller. We, we don't get listened to, we don't get seen, and then it's directly related with the trust or the willingness to trust this person.

[06:29] Gerrit: Yeah, and see, if I pick up what you just said about this impression, it's not about the like the big muscular guy getting on stage with the Superman cape. I think it's less, about the physical appearance, but it is about, as the word actually suggests, executive presence. It has a lot to do with simply being present in the moment. And when my clients ask me, "What can I do to develop executive presence?" We typically start with just that: Being fully engaged in the here and now, whether you're in a discussion one-on-one with somebody, whether you're in a big meeting, when your mind is still occupied with whatever has happened, before that meeting or before that moment. You may have received an email that was very upsetting. You may have had an argument with somebody else, and if this is still on your mind, you can't be fully present in this next encounter with other people. Or on the other hand, you can already be focused on what comes next. Maybe there's another highly important, maybe even more important meeting coming up later. But the point is you can't change the past. The future is not there yet. So all you can do is really being in this moment. 

And then the next question is, yeah, how do I do it? And one of the answers for me is a mindfulness practice, because in my definition, mindfulness is simply continuous present moment awareness. And as you know, mindfulness practice is a big part of my life, so to say, if you wish, the foundation. And I remember well when I went to my first mindfulness retreat in Plum Village, which is a Buddhist monastery and retreat center. You're supposed to practice mindfulness twenty-four/seven. That starts early in the morning with sitting meditation. Then when you have your breakfast, it's actually eating meditation, so you're very fully present with your food. You pay attention to what and how you consume. You may have walking meditation. You have service meditation, where you provide some com-community work, which could be cleaning up the dining hall, gardening work, or cleaning the toilets. And it's less about getting the task done like we do in everyday life. It's about being fully present while you're doing this. And if you can develop such a practice, if you at least try to be mindful, to be present throughout the whole day, then you will, will also be able to carry this over to your leadership situations. And as somebody once said, "The greatest gift you can offer another person is your presence, your full attention." So leadership starts with being genuinely present for the other people who might need you now.

[09:54] Martin: Those are great examples then also how to practice this. And of course, something that you practice, it comes easier to you, right?

[10:03] Gerrit: Yeah. And I noticed that, you know, I also, am a certified coach supervisor. And when I was in this course, I thought, "Oh, now we learn so much more about coaching." But one of the key learnings was actually that who you are as a coach is more important than what you do. So in other words, the key in coaching is for me being fully present for my clients. And that is more important, the being is more important than the doing. And the same applies for leadership. So it's more about who you are and how you show up rather than the things you do. If you just look at what do great leaders do and you try to copy them, and then people will sense that is not authentic for you, that won't make you a better leader.

[10:54] Martin: Mm-hmm. And I, and I think this is so critical. This what is your mindset about what is your role as an executive when you, for instance, walk into a meeting. And is it about you, that they are there to serve you, or are you there to make others matter? Are you there to help them and be there for them? And if you have that mindset, I think being fully present is really easy. But i- like you're saying, if your being is not there, it will be impossible to be present as well, because you are going to think about something that you think is more important than these guys in the meeting.

[11:35] Gerrit: Yeah, and, you led already to the second point. So part of executive presence is less about you as a leader. It's at least equally important about the others. So what you said is 'make others matter'. So imagine you are at a, let's say, a networking event or a bigger event with lots of people, and during this event you have a, a one-on-one conversation with somebody. Are you able to make this other person feel like they are the most important person in the room in that moment, and not the other 100 people around you? And this is what I often see: you see people talking to one person, and then their eyes start moving to the right and to the left. But if you can really focus on that one person, you make them feel matter, and that builds leadership credibility. 

[12:30] Martin: Hmm. Or, or if you don't talk about yourself.

[12:33] Gerrit: If you don't talk about yourself. Exactly, yes.

[12:38] Martin: Sorry to interrupt you. 

[12:39] Gerrit: No, uh, I, just wanted to add another perspective there. So for instance, I think it's also about not only in these conversations that the other person realizes you are fully with them, but it's also about creating opportunities for others to shine. So for instance, when you're generous about giving credit, for instance to team members , when you can make the other people be heroes, that helps a lot. But actually, again, there was this other aspect not talking about you. This relates also to 'just listen more and speak less'. So on the one hand, we have this idea, yeah, a charismatic leader is somebody who can give great speeches, and that may be part of it. But actually more important than the speaking is the listening, which relates to making the other person matter, valuing their opinion, eventually you understand their ideas, concerns and perspectives. And I'm not sure, I think I heard this once from you, Martin, about that the highest ranking person in the room should be the last one to talk.

[13:54] Martin: Hmm. Hmm. And I think this is really very well practiced among the good leaders that I have encountered. They have this very natural habit of, uh, being quiet for a very long time, and then in the end, both they have had a chance to hear everybody out, everybody got the chance to speak, and then they can also choose and indirectly steer where decisions are going by which points, what are they saying at the very end. So it's an extremely good tactic, but it requires confidence in yourself, and it requires patience. When I was in my ju- more junior day as a consultant, I was always occupied by showing how clever I was, or how much, how much ideas I had. So of course, I was jumping into the meetings trying to explain and share blah, blah, blah. I was talking from the beginning. And of course it's good to, to share all your ideas when you're excited. But some of the leaders that I met, and that I trusted the most, were the ones that actually were quiet until the very end, and then they say something that seems to fit exactly.

Yeah. And when I listen to you, an image comes up for me of a very calm person, a calm leader. And I think there's also often this misconception that a confident and strong leader needs to be, what should I say, kind of loud, right? And that is exactly not, not the case, I think. I think a calm leader exhibits much more executive presence than the, the loud, hectic one

And, and also what we have spoken about many times. The leader, the executive, you don't need all the answers. You're, you have a quiet confidence because you know you can trust the process, and you don't need to be the one delivering the answers.

[16:03] Gerrit: Yeah, and confidence, I mean, it's also something tricky, right. Because again, there are some people who are, I would almost say again naturally more confident than others. And where does confidence come from? Again, there are many components, but one comes from knowing yourself, knowing your limitations, knowing your strengths, knowing like you said, can I trust the process? Can I build on past successes, for instance? But it can also have this aspect, and I think that was also something we discussed with Carolyn, in moments where I feel personally less confident, can I ground myself in a way? Can I, for instance, connect by being aware that my feet are on the ground? Can I, depending on what the environment is, can I put my hands on my hips? Can I have a more upright posture? In a way, the brain is looking at what the body is doing, and when I simply have a more confident posture, I will eventually also feel more, more confident.

[17:18] Martin: I can perceive having executive presence as being something very self-centered at one hand. But what we've been discussing so far is actually, of course self-centered by being aware

[17:34] Gerrit: Yeah.

[17:35] Martin: of my strength as a leader, but not letting that overpower. Because having executive presence, in my interpretation from what you are saying, is not about myself. It's not about me, me, me. I achieve it by making others shine, by listening, by being presence for others.

[17:56] Gerrit: Yeah, I would perhaps use instead of self-centered, simply self-aware. the awareness of also in this moment in the present, what's going on with me? And coming back to this presence is, again, something that I consider rather simple in terms of advice, but which surprisingly often many people don't do, and that is to focus on your intent.

So let's take again the example of a meeting or a speech you're giving. It's to ask, "well, what is really my intent here?" Um, and while I'm saying this out loud, I just working with somebody who said, "Well, you know, can you also set an intention for the day?" Maybe in the morning when you're under the shower and perhaps you're thinking about what will be going on during the day, can you set an intention of how you're going to show up in these meetings, in these presentations? And when you do this more, more intently, then it helps you massively to stay focused because your brain will eventually check, um, are you still doing this or are you deviating from what you said you wanted to do? Or let me, let me correct this, not what you want to do, but how you want to be.

[19:22] Martin: And, and this to me is a big difference. I'm imagining if I'm walking into a, a steering committee meeting, I want to be there to solve problems, and I'm thinking about how fast can we solve this very urgent problem now. And you're telling me I need to focus on how I want to be in the meeting, and I can see the difference. If I'm focusing on how can I be the best version of myself in the meeting, I have a much bigger chance of success, right? But if I'm focusing on: I got to solve the problem now, I'm going to step in and start to control it, I'm going to interrupt people, I'm not going to be able to sit silent, because I want this problem solved now.

[20:13] Gerrit: And this how you show up is then also related to body language, which we touched on briefly already. So executive presence is also related in how you carry yourself. And, we spoke about a calm and grounded posture, but it's also related to keeping eye contact with people and importantly remaining composed under pressure. As you said, there was this calm leader that you or the leaders that you admire so much. So if people get upset because something unpleasant is happening, it's, it's usually not really helpful. And a question that I like very much is: how can you project confidence without arrogance? How can you project calmness without appearing detached?" Yeah. So there is the calm presence, but there can also be, um, a superficial calmness because you simply don't care, and, and that's not what we're looking for.

[21:20] Martin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think sitting at the table, we can immediately pick these signals up, right? Is this guy still in this room mentally as well as physically? And also the importance of body language. I, I remember one leader in one meeting, and he was saying one thing: that he wanted ideas and, and everybody's contribution is important, and everybody was invited to now share ideas. So there can come some, some shared conclusions. And when everybody was speaking, he was tapping his pen in the ... He was tapping his pen on the table. His body language was so much of impatience, and he let a few people talk, and then he cut everybody short, and he said, "Okay, thank you for all your input. This is what we're now going to do."

[22:19] Gerrit: Yeah. Beautiful. You can always learn from somebody, and even if it's learning what, what not to do.

[22:26] Martin: He didn't have bad intentions. He was just so focused, related to, to the previous point. He was so focused at the problem he wanted to get solved and he was not aware of that. And he was saying one thing and he was communicating an intention of one thing, but his body language and then his words showed the opposite.

[22:52] Gerrit: And, and watching your words leads me to another aspect that is perhaps a bit more basic, what you might learn in any presentation training. Because how you say something is often as important as what you say. And that starts with speaking clearly and ensuring that everybody can hear you comfortably, right? For instance, if you're in a big meeting room without a microphone, can the person in the last row still hear you well? And you can vary your pace, You slow down when you want to make a really important point. You can vary your pitch and tone so that the whole thing is not getting too boring and that you keep the audience engaged. And also don't be afraid of silence. So strategic pauses can be eventually more powerful than too many words. 

[23:50] Martin: I can also say the opposite. Sometime it's important to also project energy, excitement, to speak fast, to show that you're really passionate about this.If you're laid back it might be misunderstood that this is not important or this is not something that you're really, really interested in. So to show your energy, to be a little bit over the top is also effective. To me, the difference is are you doing this intentionally? Meaning that you're aware of what you're doing or are you on autopilot?

[24:26] Gerrit: And, and I would add to intentionally, are you doing it in an authentic way? And I think that is maybe, yeah, again, one of the most important aspects. You're not trying to copy somebody else. Don't try to be like, the late Steve Jobs on stage if that is not natural for you. So being authentic that starts with being aware again of who you are, what your values are, and being confident in who you are. Um, I still remember I was once in a Toastmasters where you practice public speaking. And sometimes we also there have this stereotype how a presentation should be with a certain energy and inspiring people and, and, and. But how you inspire people depends on your personality. And there was one example that moved me a lot. There was a, uh, a Thai person who was rather small, did not have a naturally loud voice, and he gave a talk and he explained how he was once a student protest leader. And this message was so powerful and was partly so powerful because he delivered it in a way that was authentic and that was for him, being very quiet and calm and being this rather small person where everybody was sitting there in awe and said, "Wow." Yeah. And, uh, on the other hand, if you are a very energetic person, then probably that is not the preferred style in which you should give a presentation.We spoke in the beginning, the nervous system will pick up these signals very quickly and people pick up very, very quickly whether you are authentic in what you're doing or not.

[26:21] Martin: Mm-hmm. I'm thinking of one dilemma that I feel myself when, for instance, when I'm leading meetings or facilitating workshops. That I spent time both trying to be aware of myself, about my feeling, how am I sitting, how am I talking, et cetera, and at the same time also trying to be aware of the other person, how are they speaking, how might they be feeling, and I'm trying to kind of both read my own mind and read the other person's mind, and it becomes overwhelming at some stage, especially if I was stressed. How, how to manage this when I need to have attention both on myself and on the other person?

[27:06] Gerrit: Yeah, it's a good question. I remember a conversation I had recently with a client where I talked about bringing yourself to the meta level. So on one level you are in this activity. For instance, you are in a conversation with somebody, you are in this workshop. But then can you also have the ability to put yourself, let's say, on a bookshelf or be this famous fly on the wall? So can you, while you're doing this, can you bring... in a way, some of your attention to observing the situation from the outside? And I think that is, of course, to do this is much easier when you are in a situation that you have been in many times where you feel comfortable, where the stress level is not that high, it's much harder when you are in a heated situation. But I think the key is here, as so often: practice, practice, practice.

[28:03] Martin: And, and practice self-awareness before, so that you trust yourself and you know yourself, and you have practiced to recognize, for instance, uh, your emotions and the signals that your body are sending to you. For instance, when you start to, to react or feeling threatened or feeling like you need to start to control. If you have been spending time in self-reflection, in practice, doing some meditation, all of those parts will be more automatic, and you can spend more attention on the person in front of you.

Yeah, So I think there were now a n- a number of ideas already, s- specific steps that you can take to build your executive presence. Maybe coming back to the beginning, so how does it matter? So we talked initially about the promotion, and this also has to do with, oftentimes people then have to deal, with, senior management, maybe with the board. And this relates to also to influence when you don't have the formal authority or influence in general, right? So when you bring executive presence to an exchange then you will be able to influence people beyond just the content of your message, beyond the argument you're making. And these different skills and the behaviors that we have spoken about, I think they all are part of generating trust. They are all part of strengthening the relation.

[29:39] Gerrit: Yeah, it's building trust and psychological safety we talk a lot about. Initially, we also spoke about leading under pressure and leading through uncertainty, right? So imagine a leader, uh, who is all over the place, gets hectic, versus a leader who remains calm and composed. Again, not like not caring about the situation, but really exhibiting this confidence that "we will get through this". There's, there's a way out of that. Uh, at the moment it may be difficult, we can acknowledge this, but let's now look at how do we solve that

[30:13] Martin: And I think this is what companies are looking for in their leaders and in promoting leaders to executive level. This capability iswhat companies are really looking for. Because that is, of course, the situation that many organizations are standing in. It's complex, it's chaotic, and we need leaders that can project calmness and confidence.

[30:40] Gerrit: Yeah. Yeah, when I reflect on the conversation we had so far, we started with this fluffy expression of 'executive presence', 'charisma'. W-what, what is it, how do we see it? But I hope that with the examples we discussed today, we can give people some hints to further develop it. Is there anything else that you would like to add here?

[31:02] Martin: Uh, reflection questions, Gerrit. We always end with reflections

[31:07] Gerrit: Do you have one?

[31:10] Martin: One thing that I take away, it seems like what we have talked about is common sense. It's easy to understand in theory. It's easy to do when I'm calm, when I'm not under pressure. But it seems when I'm under stress and pressure, this is where I need to have the highest executive presence.

So my reflection is then: how much do I know about myself so that I can remain present, remain open, remain confident even when everything in my body is telling me to, to take charge, to step in and try to control the situation?

[31:55] Gerrit: Nice. I would also like to stick with the 'presence' in 'executive presence' and ask the question, what can I do to be more present in each moment? And that would eventually include an awareness of what are the things that keep me from being present? So what often distracts me, what gets me upset? And then the follow-up question would be, how do I deal with these aspects that get into the way of being fully present?

[32:32] Martin: Very nice, very practical.

[32:34] Gerrit: I hope so.

[32:36] Martin: Yes. Thank you, Gerrit, for today's conversation

[32:40] Gerrit: Thank you, Martin. Yeah, so this concludes today's episode. If you would like our support in your leadership development, be that through a company-wide initiative or individual executive coaching, perhaps developing your e- executive presence, please do not hesitate to reach out to us via hello@secondcrackleadership.com.

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Thank you very much, and bye for now.