[00:00] Gerrit: And with a professional coach, you have this confidant by your side who is on your side, in your corner, so to say, but who also has the professional experience and also can keep a certain professional distance and will also challenge you at times. So one important aspect of my role as a coach, and that is sometimes the hardest part is providing leaders with candid feedback that maybe nobody else is giving them.

Dear listeners, a warm welcome to episode number 49 of Second Crack, The Leadership Podcast. If you're new to this show, this is where we explore everyday leadership dilemmas and paradoxes, and where we invite you as our listener to self-reflect. I'm Gerrit Pelzer. I am an executive coach and I bring to my coaching a combination of Western science and Asian wisdom. Joining me today as always is my dear friend and business partner, Martin Aldergard. Martin specializes in driving change and transformation within organizations, and what we both have in common is that we always put people at the center of our work. Hi Martin. It's great to be recording again with you today.

[01:27] Martin: Hi, Gerrit, and actually I must say congratulations, it's your 15th anniversary working as an executive coach. That is a big milestone, and I think we actually need to talk more about your long experience as an executive coach and how you help senior leaders.

[01:50] Gerrit: Yeah. Thank you very much, Martin. And the question that leaders always ask is how can I become an even better leader? How can I be the best leader I can possibly be? And I might be a bit biased, but for me, executive coaching is one of the best ways for leaders to develop themselves. And we realized in 49 episodes we never really talked about coaching, so today is a great opportunity.

[02:17] Martin: So 

let's talk about it. Let's talk about why and how leaders can use an executive coach. Let's talk about the value of coaching, how to make it work, but also some of the common misconceptions around coaching that might stop leaders from considering using a coach. And perhaps then to really kick us off, what is executive coaching to you, Gerrit?

[02:41] Gerrit: Yeah, I think I want to skip the textbook definitions today, and instead, based on my own experience, I would say that executive coaching is about helping leaders create the conditions. Which people can be their best. And this is a very short sentence, but we need to really go into the details of this. So helping leaders create the conditions in which people can be their best. So I use intentionally to be their best, not do their best, because our underlying state of mind, our state of being. Who we are and how we are that defines all our actions, right? So with this right state of being the right doing or actions will follow. And we, we actually spoke, in one episode about the Inner Development Goals about this already, because the Inner Development Goals or IDG is a framework where the first category is 'being', and maybe we need some examples what I mean when we talk about being here. So for instance, one classical area is, 'giving feedback', and you can look at all the do's and don'ts, how to give effective feedback. But if you don't bring a combination of being understanding compassionate, while at the same time being assertive, all these actions, if you do them just mechanistically, they won't work. Or another wonderful example that we often find is many leaders know they should listen more, right? But is it really enough to go into a meeting and now just do it. How do you do it? So in most cases it just will not work unless you are really curious about what the other person has to say. So this 'doing', the listening, needs this foundation of curiosity otherwise it will just not work.

[04:53] Martin: I'm assuming this also reflect you as, as an executive coach, also not being the person with the answers, but guiding the reflection on the being the deeper lying questions.

[05:12] Gerrit: Yeah, and I mean, it also relates to me as a coach, right? So when you look at junior coaches when they start, they look very much into the process of coaching. They may adhere to a certain model, and at the beginning that's probably what you need. But for me, as I matured as a coach, if you wish, I realized the most important aspect of coaching for me is being fully present, not being distracted by maybe the many email answers that are waiting for me, not distracted by what else is going on in my life, but just really being present with the other person.

But we need to go back to the definition. So, 'helping leaders create the conditions in which people can be their best.' And it may sound like I, as a leader, need to create these conditions for the others, but people actually includes the leader themselves. So executive coaching typically starts with the leader, and there's a saying, 'who you are is how you lead.' And many of the people I work with, they haven't spent much time on, you said already reflection. So they haven't really explored who they really are as a leader and what are then the conditions in which I can be my best. So this has, for instance, to do with emotional control, and aligning my personal values as far as possible with the values or the vision of the corporation. And once I have managed this, and when I say once I've managed this, I think it's a lifelong practice for everybody. Then it's about what are the conditions other people need? And it starts with understanding that everybody in my team, in my organization is an individual and the conditions may be different.

 But one aspect for sure is this important dimension about the emotions. We had a one specific episode on what leaders need to know about the emotions and this may have aspects of how do I avoid triggering fear in other people? And instead, how can I build trust? And, how can I evoke or nurture emotions of joy and excitement? So this is what I mean by creating the conditions.

[07:37] Martin: These type of questions is something that rarely is discussed in other situations or in other forums. So as a leader to, to have an executive coach and being able to address the emotional side is of course very important, because it's also becomes very intimate to the person and it might not be something that you like to discuss with your colleagues. Another topic that always comes up around coaching is having goals and being results driven and even some coaching models start with defining goals. How do you see the importance of having goals versus so to say, trusting the process, being in the moment and see what emerges?

[08:19] Gerrit: Yeah, this is a very big topic. So one of the models that you maybe were referring to is the very popular grow model and the G stands for goals. So, there may be this idea that coaching always has to start with the goals. But I think that is one thing that has also changed a lot over the years for me. So maybe one aspect is that sometimes the goals are not clear at the beginning. And, and for instance David Clutterbuck wrote a lot about 'coach maturity' and, how sometimes the goal of coaching is to identify what the goal actually is. And in my experience, there is a a lot around this performance coaching and utilizing your full potential to perform better. In my experience the senior leaders I work with, they don't need additional pushing from me. Like the drill sergeant or the personal trainer say, "yeah, give me two more. Okay, one more." So they don't need to be pushed into a bigger, better, faster, because the people I work with, they are typically already highly self-motivated. They experience a lot of pressure at work, and they don't need additional pressure from me. So most of the time what they need is a space to slow down. A space where they can reflect in a safe environment, where they can gain clarity and new insights. And often that's all they need.   So if they have this insight, they already know what they need to do, and then they will just do it.

[10:08] Martin: There I think we have already expressed one of the key values of executive coaching. And of course goals are really important, but to me you mentioned clarity, and I'm linking this with the clarity of goals. As a leader, we have so many things going on and assurance of knowing, I'm clear in my mind of my priorities, where I should focus my time, how I can envision those future goals, and then I can go back to my work with renewed energy, with renewed confidence that I'm working on the right things, and I have this alignment through the clarity. 

[10:52] Gerrit: Yeah, exactly. And and clarity relates then also clarity about what, right. So for instance, the balance between what's important right now and the long run. Is there anything I need to balance or prioritize, what's important for the organization, but also personally for me? And how do I align, for instance, my personal priorities with those of the organization. How can I have the desired impact that we need to have for this organization? So this is related to clarity and maybe coming back to the goal. So I think what may also differentiate the junior coach from a more experienced coach, is that experienced coaches they know that they can't control the outcomes of a single coaching session and even the overall coaching process. So come back to the focus on being fully present in a session, being comfortable with not knowing and being open to whatever may emerge. And you said trusting the process. And it's often in these moments when you create this atmosphere where people get new ideas. They say something, "okay, Gerrit, I've never looked at this from this perspective", and this is where the magic happens in coaching.

Now at the same time, we need to be careful that not every session is just, 'ah, you know, let's just sit here and, and see what is coming up.' So there's also this balance, and that is one of the, the responsibilities of the coach, of also keeping an eye on the desired outcomes. So that you don't end coaching after six months and you look back and think like, yeah, okay, every session was very nice, but what have we really achieved?

[12:50] Martin: I think this might be one of the barriers or misconceptions that the coaching is not really problem fixing. What we're trying to develop is more complex. It's a inner journey, it's leadership development, it's not a technical problem that needs fixing. So there, there is this balance between being in the moment, looking what emerges, reflection, stopping, pausing, being curious to investigate. Versus then also, of course, in a coaching process, then drive the conversation forward, because you have tangible results in the end that you want to achieve.

[13:28] Gerrit: And a problem I then observe is: I understand that organizations also want to standardize processes, but the issue here is that every coaching is actually highly individual. And let's say there may be larger organizations where coaching is a standard process for experienced leaders. So every senior leader is entitled to work with a coach. And of course I also understand that the organization wants to see a return on investment for the coaching. And then they may say, "okay, for every coachee, everybody who participates in a coaching program, we need to identify, three or five smart goals. Then we need specific action steps with follow up." But then again, we start. Trying to operate everything like a machine, and then there is no room anymore for this emergence and this can be really counterproductive.

[14:29] Martin: If I'm a very successful leader and I, for instance, I got promoted to vice president or something. I might think I don't need a coach, because I'm the one that should coach other people. I'm the one that having the answers. I've proven my ability. So how to deal with this situation, shouldn't every leader need a coach?

[14:51] Gerrit: Yeah. I throw the question back at you, Martin. How many of the professional athletes work with a coach?

[14:59] Martin: Yeah, I think my perception is a lot of them, right? Perhaps it depends on the sport, But, somehow, you always have a trainer or a coach.

[15:08] Gerrit: Yeah, I would tend to say the the top athletes, all of them, are working with a coach. So why wouldn't we do this in business? And I feel reminded of an interview I saw with Eric Schmidt, the former CEO of Google, who was in a similar situation. Actually another board member suggested that he should work with a coach. And he speaks very openly about his reaction that he said, you know, "I'm an established CEO, why would I need a coach?" But then he was at least open to starting it and he completely reframed his perspective. So he has actually, with some other Silicon Valley leaders, written a book, Trillion Dollar Coach, in which they talk about the positive experience they, had with coaching. And they actually say exactly what you said: actually, every leader should have a coach because the, the personal development never ends. And especially for these people at the top, it can be quite lonely And as human beings, we actually gain these new insights, we make better decisions, when we are in an exchange with another human being. And often there is nobody else in the organization where we feel we can be really open because it may appear like we are weak. If we talk about our problems. Our spouses at home, they may not understand the business. If we talk to a friend, they are highly biased, so they will in influence in a way that they think is best for us. And with a professional coach, you have this confidant by your side who is on your side, in your corner, so to say, but who also has the professional experience and also can keep a certain professional distance and will also challenge you at times. So one important aspect of my role as a coach, and that is sometimes the hardest part is providing leaders with candid feedback that maybe nobody else is giving them.

[17:09] Martin: I recall you told me in the past about the story about one of your coaching clients that was always giving excuses. 

 And it seemed like this leader didn't really want to reflect on him, him, or herself, to, to protect him or herself. How can coaching work in that situation? 

[17:33] Gerrit: I, think I remember what you were referring to. So I worked with a leader, and often as part of the coaching process, at the beginning, we conduct the 360 degree feedback, and then there comes the point in time where I debrief the feedback, the results to the leader. And exactly as you said, there were always explanations and excuses. When there was anything, let's say critical or something that this leader didn't like, and he said, I, uh, "yeah, but this is only because of that." Or "I know who said this And, and so the, the feedback continued like this. And at the end of the session I said, damn, you know, I think that that didn't land so well. And I always set some time aside after my sessions to reflect. And then I summarized this in an email and said, "look, reflecting on our discussion today, I felt you were a bit dis defensive, you had explanations for this." And since these 360 process is usually at the beginning of a coaching, I, I wasn't sure how this person would respond to me providing this candid feedback on the feedback. And, uh, sometimes people don't want to hear it and they may say, you know, you are, you're not the right coach for me. And we had the next session and he came back to me and he said, Gerrit, I showed your email to your wife, 

[18:57] Martin: to, 

[18:57] Gerrit: uh, to 

to my wife. So he said, "Gerrit, I showed your email to my wife and she was laughing a lot." So what he was trying to say is, I was spot on with my feedback. Everybody knows it, and this can then be also this icebreaker to say, "yeah, I see this is something I need to work on."

[19:18] Martin: Mm. I think this was a leader that might have been very skeptical to this kind of self-development, but then really taking it in and starting to develop. You were the one to provide this candid feedback and giving it straight to this person in a way that perhaps nobody else could actually manage to do.

[19:40] Gerrit: Yeah, and it also relates to what Eric Schmidt says in this interview says, "one thing that people are never good at is seeing themselves as other people see them." So whatever we do, we do with best intentions, but sometimes we realize that what we do does not have the desired impact. And so feedback is critical for leadership development, and often it's the coach who needs to provide this feedback if nobody else does.

[20:10] Martin: Mm mm So now we are already starting to talk about real value that you generate as a coach. This is so important to highlight what's the tangible value of coaching? Like you already mentioned, like everybody wants ROI, and we talked about that. We need balance being very results and goal oriented in the coaching versus going with the flow. How can we look at the value of coaching, that seems to be more intangible. What, what is it that we can do to highlight that value, to secure that value?

[20:48] Gerrit: I actually spent quite a lot of time looking into how can we measure or identify the ROI for coaching. And I haven't found a good way. 

[21:00] Martin: Hmm. 

[21:01] Gerrit: Yeah, there's so many factors. I mean, sometimes it can be relatively easy. Maybe a leader is working on driving certain business results and there are then measurable goals, there can be SMART goals. And then of course we can discuss forever and one day in how far the leader themselves impacted then these goals and what were other factors. But bottom line, a company is always measured by usually their financial performance. And we can see how the organization or a certain department performs.

 When we are working more on the soft skills where we might not see an immediate financial benefit, conflict resolution, employee engagement, communication skills, and and, and. Then there can be for instance self-assessments. I can rate myself, how has my certain competency evolved over time. Or I can also ask others for feedback. And that is actually a practice I was about to say I like a lot, I like it a lot with a 'but'. And that is the stakeholder involved coaching. So we can ask the major stakeholders for that leader, what are specific development needs? What does this leader need to do differently to have a bigger leadership impact? And then along the coaching we can ask them if they're making progress. And this has a number of advantages. First of all, for the leader themselves, if they know they are measured by others it may increase the motivation to do something. Let me rephrase that. It's not about the motivation, it's about the prioritization. Because the motivation is usually there, but people are so busy that they often put their own development in the 'important but never urgent' quadrant. Second is we also highlight to other people that this leader is working on these aspects of his leadership. Let me give you an example. Let's say I have the reputation of always being late for meetings. And then I make a major effort, the next 10 meetings, I'm on time. Meeting number 11, something gets in the way and I'm two minutes late. What do other people say? "Gerrit is always late." It's very hard to change a label that you already have. But if you tell other people, "Hey, you know, can you monitor me, I'm making an effort being on time for meetings ." And then they make maybe notes, you know, okay, Gary is on time is on time is on time. And then they realize, oh this 11th was, was an exception, he's actually making a lot of effort and a lot of progress. And it also helps me as a coach to see things more objectively. A leader might be telling me with best intentions, or they may be convinced that they are making progress, but are they really?

Now I said, I like this stakeholder involved coaching with a 'but', and there is one potential downside: we must ensure that this does not result in stakeholder pleasing. So this is what these other people want from me. Now I just do that and I will be fine. Now, we must ensure that this is still aligned with what the organization needs, not what particular stakeholder want from this leader.

[24:37] Martin: Hmm. So this was a great example, it becomes very tangible. Do you have other examples how you have helped leaders make a difference in their company through coaching.

[24:51] Gerrit: Yeah, I mean, in, in 15 years I've coached quite a number of people and I would say most of them have made some sort of progress. There are maybe some examples that, now that I think about it, that still stand out. I remember one particular case, which I enjoyed very much. So the task was to prepare relatively junior person, a high potential for a higher level role. And this worked pretty well, there was also a lot of perception management involved, and of course there was an aspect of right time and right place. And this person was promoted twice in a two year period. And Martin, this may sound like, okay, this was great that I was helping this individual, but I think for the company, this is also important to have the right people in the right job and make sure that on the one hand a promotion does not end in failure, which happens quite a lot. Somebody was goodin the previous role, and based on the performance, we promote them, but then everybody realizes too late, they don't have what it takes to be successful in a next level role. And it also helps organization to identify hidden talents. Yeah, so I think that was helpful for the organization.

And then I remember another case where it was more directly related to the organization: I worked with a C-level executive and we worked on his influencing skills. And ultimately it was that he had a great idea for a new business strategy and he was then able to convince the other board members and this new strategy was then implemented and was very successful for the business.

And while I'm talking, Martin, I remember this wonderful project we actually did together where you helped more from the overall organizational side, it was about creating and implementing a new vision for an organization.

[26:56] Martin: and the strategy

[26:57] Gerrit: and the strategy of course. And we did workshops together, and then as part of the project I was coaching some of the key leaders along the way. And, and the result was just amazing. I mean, the managing director approach as later said, "my goodness, honestly, I did not expect that we could achieve so much within one year!"

[27:19] Martin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And there we had coaching when we have specific strategies that needs to be implemented, a new vision. Of course it also becomes easier to measure the outcome compared to what you already spoke about, when there are soft skill, so to say, the more pure individual development. But I think the key is always, link it back to some initiative, it can be a important goal in the business, strategy, a reorganization, a reengagement.

[27:52] Gerrit: Yeah, just think of any change management process. So we are working very much on the doing side. So we have the current situation, then we have the desired future situation, and then we identify the steps of how to get from here to there. And that always looks very nice on paper. But then what happens is certain unexpected things get into the way, and that is usually around people. And then if we leave leaders alone with these problems, the best strategy on paper doesn't get implemented. And this is why I think coaching can help a lot, especially in transformation initiatives.

[28:37] Martin: Yeah, this links very well to one question I'm having: how can a leader tell that they are in a position where coaching could really help? And this is one way to look at it, when we have a bigger change going on, or we are facing big decisions. How do I know that I, at a spot where, where I should call you?

[29:00] Gerrit: Yeah, I mean it, it really depends. So I think you can look at coaching from two perspectives. One can be that there is a particular problem that you want to resolve. It could be that there is a big project where you would like to have an external sparring partner, but I also look at coaching as a longer term process. And I'm coming back to Eric Schmidt and other leaders, they continuously work with a coach, because they want to have this exchange with somebody they can trust. There is potentially nobody else they can discuss these things with, and it then helps also if you work with somebody long term, you actually get to know each other quite well. So coaching can also be a, a longer term relationship. So I wouldn't say there is this one particular situation when you know it's time to get a coach. 

[29:57] Martin: Gerrit, before we go into our usual reflection questions, anything more to add?

[30:03] Gerrit: Yeah. I think that in organizations we still have some work to do about how we look at coaching. So there is still sometimes the perception that we need coaching only when there is some fixing that that needs to be done. There may be also some cultural aspects. So from my personal observation, I think that in countries like the the US or in the UK and also in some Asian regions, coaching has become more of a norm. Whereas in some other countries in Europe, including Germany, it's still an exception. Like you said before, why do I need a coach when I have already reached this level? And it's not like we must look at coaching like a punishment. So you get a coach because something is wrong with you. We need to actually see it as a reward. The organization sees this potential in you, and that's why they literally invest in your development.

[31:06] Martin: Hmm. And I think from the conversation of course the definition of coaching is really important that we have, both as a leader and as an organization, the right expectations, what we want to get out of coaching as a tool. We spoke about some of the misconceptions, some of the barriers, but also how can we really get the value out of the coaching. I think in the way that you are setting up coaching engagements really is driving to, to harvest the full value. And what I also learned from this conversation, is the art of the balance, this intricate balance between being in the moment, being curious what is emerging and helping your client to feel safe to explore the unknown, without jumping into problem solving mode. But at the same time also have a clear direction forward in term of where is this going to end and how can we really drive this to tangible results. We always end with reflection questions. I'm not sure if you have one already.

[32:16] Gerrit: Perhaps when you are a leader and you have not explored coaching yet, you could ask yourself and, and reflect: "What have I actually done for my own development" - and there may be an aspect of the professional and personal development - "over the past months and years? And is that the right amount of time and energy?" Because we're coming back to this Eisenhower Matrix in my experience again. The personal development, personal growth, it is immensely important, but in the day-to-day hectic, it's never getting really urgent. And people postpone it and postpone it and you know, just ask "Okay, would it be worth investing some more time in my personal growth and would it be perhaps helpful to call Gerrit and see if he will be my partner in this process?"

[33:16] Martin: It was very similar to the reflection question I had. I was thinking what is actually stopping me from taking the step to consider coaching, considering using more time, and when I'm so pressed on time, really leveraging the time with a coach to develop myself to my full potential.

[33:42] Gerrit: Yeah, and you can also ask, coming back to the feedback, you can ask, " what other things that I might not be seeing?" And we like also these 'what if' questions, and one is of course: what will happen if I just continue over the next few years in the same way like I did the past years and, you know, maybe it's okay, I'm not saying that there must be something wrong with it, but just anticipate these 'what ifs'.

[34:15] Martin: Mm-hmm. And then the action item becomes, call Gerrit.

[34:21] Gerrit: Yes.

[34:22] Martin: I think Gerrit, this has been a wonderful conversation. Your many years of experience here really shines through because you are looking not only at these nice benefits of coaching but you also have really addressed how we need to set it up in the right way. So it has been really insightful for me to understand the true power of executive coaching and how to make it right.

[34:48] Gerrit: Thank you. Yeah, Martin then I guess this concludes today's episode. So if you as our listener would like our support in developing your leaders, be that in a company-wide initiative or through individual executive coaching, please do not hesitate to contact us via hello@secondcrackleadership.com, that's all in one word. And if you enjoy the podcast, please remember to subscribe and tell a friend about it. And if you could leave a positive comment or rating, we would certainly appreciate it. 

Bye for now.