Second Crack – The Leadership Podcast (Episode 45)

This transcript is AI-generated and may contain typos and errors.

[00:11] Gerrit: Dear listeners, a warm welcome to a brand new episode of Second Crack the Leadership Podcast. If you're new to the show, this is where we explore everyday leadership dilemmas and paradoxes, and where we invite you to self-reflect. I am Gerrit Pelzer. I work as an executive coach and I bring to my coaching a combination of Western science and Asian wisdom. Joining me today, as always, is my dear friend and business partner, Martin Aldergård. Martin specializes in driving change and transformation within organizations, and what we both have in common is that we always put people at the center of our work. Hi Martin, it's good to be recording with you again.

[00:56] Martin: Hi Gerrit, likewise, always enjoying our monthly conversation. And today we might have a somewhat unusual perspective on leadership. We're going to talk about the clown and the art of clowning. And, and I'm thinking how might this be relevant to leadership? For instance, one critical skills of a leader is to be present in the moment, to build connections with people, really listening. And building trust and authenticity, and especially if we are in uncertain situations. And among other things, this is a skill that the clown is also really good at. And we are going to explore what we can learn from the clown. And to help us, we have a new guest on the show, welcome Janolof Elander.

[01:50] Janolof: Hi Gerritt and hi Martin, thank you.

[01:52] Martin: Thanks for being with us Janolof, and you have more than 20 years of experience as a partner and as a leader in the IT consulting business. And about six years ago you were called to really to a full stop to make changes in your life. And since then you have been going through a deep journey of inner transformation, and today you have your own company guiding individuals and companies through transformational processes.

And as part of this journey, you have explored drama, improv and clowning, and you have found that these are areas that have valuable lessons also for leadership.

[02:39] Janolof: Oh wow, thank you, that was a nice introduction. I can really feel the, the energy of this. And this clowning experience, I found myself in a, in a workshop in December actually doing clowning. And I had no clue what it was actually, I was thinking this circus clown, being funny, the red nose and the big shoes and, and in a way fumbling through a stage. But it's something deeper to it actually, when you dive into this. And you shared something in the beginning about being present, listening to the audience and so on. And an interesting thing, there are some principles that we were guided into using in this workshop, and the main principle is actually: Don't try to be funny. How do you feel about that?

[03:30] Gerrit: I feel confused because that is, for me, the key aspect of a clown, right? I mean, um, of course maybe my first association with the clown is, as you said, the, the circus clown who I enjoyed very much as a kid. And of course there are other aspects that we might touch on later, but that's the key thing, right? You need to be funny, you need to make people laugh. And, and now you're telling me do not try to be funny. I think I need a bit more explanation here.

[04:02] Janolof: What do you think, Martin, about that?

I was also picturing this guy with the red nose falling down in the, in the stage of the circus, right, and everybody laughing, uh, more of a slapstick. But what I understand there is also something much, much deeper going on behind the scene of the clown and the relationship the clown builds with his or her audience. I think it's a good approach to look into these guidelines and then we'll see what comes out of it. And the first guideline is: Do one thing at a time.

[04:43] Martin: Uh huh And as an example, as a clown, how does that look like?

[04:48] Janolof: As, as the exploration that we did in the workshop was actually you don't move and turn your face at the same time. You move, then you pause, then you turn your face. So you actually really focused on what's, what you're doing, so what's actually going on. And this, I would say, invites a need of being very present with yourself. So am I actually moving and turning my face and maybe, I don't know, doing something else with my hands at the same time. So it requires a really embodied and present, um, I need to be really embodied and present to do one thing at a time.

[05:40] Martin: So it's, it's good for you to take it step by step and it is a practice of being really aware of what I'm doing with my body. And of course I believe it might be relevant also what you're doing with your thinking as well.

[05:59] Janolof: And from my perspective also in this inner, transformation that I've gone through, is that the deeper I listen and then I don't mean listening to my thoughts, but I listen to myself, including my body. I listen to the, to the stage or to the scene and I listen to the audience. There is a lot of more information to actually use and compile and feel into what's actually going on here and how am I affected to that? And what also if we, to turn it a bit more into leadership, what's the need of the audience or what's the need of my team? Can I really listen into what's needed in this moment?

[06:49] Martin: And if I'm thinking about what's going on besides this meeting or this conversation that I'm in, if I'm thinking about what do I need to say next? How would I have to, how should I reply? Of course, then we're falling into the trap of not being a hundred percent present and we might miss all the information, all the details.

[07:13] Janolof: I totally agree, and that's a really good one. It's like I can plan a structure of a meeting, but things might arise, so I need to be present to catch this in the moment. And this also might, what comes to me is this, the elephant in the room is like being present if an elephant in the room arises. And actually dare to pick this down and voice it.

[07:41] Martin: Hmm. Hmm.

[07:43] Janolof: So this aligns with the, the presence part. Um, I think that's a, that's a key takeaway. It's like the need of being really, really

[07:52] Martin: And, and this is so important in clowning, so that is, this is the first principle that you learn as a clown.

[08:00] Janolof: I can take the experience from the workshop. Is that it's really hard because the facilitator who had the workshop really said no. So he is really onto this, and supporting us in exploring this. Now you're doing this and that at the same time. So it was, I would say, an amazing training in being able to feel yourself and be present. So I totally love it. And it was really funny as well because it really opened up this, this authenticity in the group and the connection in the group exploring this because we wanted to do this all of us wanted to do this and explore this.

[08:40] Martin: Yeah, I don't know what to say. This is so rich and to me it comes down to one of my favorite topics mindfulness actually. And what, what is mindfulness? Mindfulness can be defined as: sustained present moment awareness. And meaning being aware of what is going on inside of me and around me, and that can only be achieved if I do one thing at a time. Um, I feel also reminded of our latest episode, Martin, when we spoke about focus time as one dish, so to say, on the healthy mind platter. Where many people think it's very efficient if I do multiple things at the same time, but it actually means I'm doing nothing right. And it can be very simple things like having breakfast or dinner and watching the news at the same time and you suddenly look at your cup and, and you don't know, oh, did I drink my tea, my coffee already? And, uh, you are missing out a lot of things when you're doing multiple things at the same time, often without realizing it.

[09:58] Gerrit: And I could also associate it when, in my imagination of a clown, this emphasis on, on what they're doing. And it also means that people, it's easier for other people to follow. So if you as a leader are all over the place, it's harder for you to follow. And what kind of example do you actually set when you're not doing one thing at a time.

[10:23] Martin: And the second principle, Janolof if he moving on, it has to do with eye contact, right?

[10:32] Janolof: It's all action in eye contact with someone in the audience. And that also aligns with the presence, right? And also with the awareness, the environmental awareness, or the situational awareness for that matter. It's really catching, I think we, we spoke a bit about it in the, from the first principle as well, is like really being aware what is actually going on and being attuned with that.

[11:02] Martin: And I think this eye contact is the way to, to start to establish relations, the connection with people in the room. It shows you that I'm listening. Or even if I'm speaking with eye contact, the communication is so much stronger. And I've observed leaders when, including myself, when I'm talking about something that is difficult, or I'm hesitating, where I'm looking that is big part of my body language. And when I'm not looking people in the eye, my level of authenticity, the perceived trust is going down. For instance, if I'm looking in the corner of the room or I'm looking up into the ceiling, it sends so many unspoken signals. But if I look people in the eye that is a very sincere way of signaling, I'm here, I'm authentic.

[12:04] Janolof: I agree, and what comes to me in this is that everyone wants to be seen.

[12:10] Gerrit: Hmm.

[12:10] Janolof: Right. Uh, so in every meeting is like the more present I can be and the more contact I can establish in that being in this moment, because this moment, again, connected to mindfulness is the most important moment there is now, because whatever happened before and whatever might happen after is of no importance. This is the now moment again, I would say.

[12:37] Martin: Mm-hmm.

[12:38] Gerrit: Yeah, and I feel strongly reminded of my work, which is related to both the leadership aspects and then of course for me personally in the executive coaching. And there's actually increasing evidence that the relationship between coach and coachee plays a bigger role in the outcomes of the coaching than what the coach actually does. And so as a coach, you need to build a connection with your client. And it's about both, you said item one and two of the guidelines one thing at a time and eye contact, they are strongly related. And when I think back about my own personal development, I think the biggest step forward maybe over the last 10 years was really building my presence. And then I realized when I was maybe a younger coach, I was so much focused on 'what do I need to do to make this a great session?' And the focused switch then to more 'how do I need to be?' And being present was really, really one key aspect of this. And the connection, like you said before, I think one, one very simple way of observing is when, when you see people, for instance, coming to a meeting and they shake hands.

Does, the person who shakes your hand, do they look you in the eye and then make a connection that goes beyond the physical connections with their hands? Or are they already looking at the next person? And that makes such a huge difference. So to me, this eye contact emphasizes the presence and then builds the connection. I think that's, that's really fantastic and very easy to see the connection between what I was about to say, what the clown does more like, how does the clown need to be, and how can we learn from the clown for leadership. It's fantastic.

[14:44] Janolof: Building on your example, Gerrit, I remember a leader I met in this boardroom meeting room, this oval table and there were about 10 people. CEO walks in and sits down and takes a moment, he's looking at every person around the table and kind of checking in without saying something. And that was such an important moment I realize now, to kind of ground everybody and say, we are here, I see everybody around the table. They didn't need to shake hands, they didn't need to say something. It just took a few seconds, but now when you mentioned this, I remember I felt awkward because it was a little bit longer silence, now I connect the dots and I see the importance of what he did there. And this actually is a perfect bridge to the third principle, which is: wait three seconds before each planned action. For me this is adding space. Because what I feel is it's in the space that we can feel the connection, because if we keep ourselves busy, even if it's multiple things at a time or whatever we're doing, if we're not adding space consciously, we lose our connection. So for me space is so important.

[16:05] Martin: Is it this quiet moment that might feel awkward before you get used to it? 

[16:12] Janolof: It is actually, yeah. So it's actually wait three seconds before each planned action. So if you actually know what to do, you do wait three seconds before you do it. But it's also important to keep the connection, as you said with this, this leader in this room that you shared about, it's like, I'm really here, I see, still see you, but we are waiting for the next action to, to unfold.

[16:40] Martin: Hmm. I'm playing a lot of music and I starting to learn now they are talking about play every single note to the fullest. It doesn't matter how quick it goes or how slow it goes, it's about using every moment, not rushing to the next one. And I'm thinking as a leader now, the pauses, not saying something, letting things sink in not always having a quick answer, not always reacting, is what I learned from a leader perspective here.

[17:21] Janolof: And that might of course add a potential awkwardness even for the leader. Because what if there is no planned action? What if I don't really know what the next action is? And what I, from these workshops also is like, can I step into the still having a connection and showing to my audience that I really have no clue what's gonna happen? And then I also add the vulnerability part. It's like I'm showing my full self, even in, in moments of uncertainty, I can show that. Which adds a perspective of invitation to others also to be vulnerable. But also others to invite others to contribute to the space.

[18:14] Martin: Hmm.

[18:15] Gerrit: When I'm just reflecting on these first three items and we have a couple of more coming, I sense this is a wonderful and powerful antidote to our very hectic time we are living in today. I always say one of the things that all my clients have in common is, that they're incredibly busy. And I mean, I need to include myself here, it's a Friday when we are recording, and there are still so many things I want to do before the next week is starting. And what we often need to do in this hectic times is take a step back and slow down. And the second aspect that came up in all three items again, is the human connection. Martin and I often talk about that in organizations we often try to run the organization like a machine, and we are forgetting that results and success is always produced by human beings, but we can't run human beings like a machine. So this slowing down, being present, making connections, being human, I think that's super powerful and I've never thought about that in the context of a clown. So I, I thank you already here, Janolof, for enlightening us.

[19:36] Martin: I'm thinking about the saying, going slow to go fast. Instead of stressing through your meeting, kind of next point, next point, next point, and trying to look clever all the time. Instead, go slow, to then have better results at the end. Because you have a stronger relationship, you have a more authentic dialogue, you will come up with better ideas, have better suggestions, better decisions. 

[20:05] Janolof: I agree, and this also comes back to the first principle of doing one thing at a time. but also, keeping presence, doing one thing at a time, waiting three seconds before each planned action, it's also making sure that it's an aligned action to where we're supposed to be heading. So in a way, it addresses the effectiveness as well.

[20:31] Gerrit: So these were the first three rules or guidelines. What, what else is there?

[20:38] Janolof: Well, the fourth one is "look at sound with your whole head."

[20:44] Gerrit: What's that? Look at sound?

[20:46] Martin: Yeah.

[20:49] Janolof: And the thing is that that is actually, again, aligned with being present, what's actually going on in the room. So if there is a sound, it's like if you hear, hear a sound, you can visualize an animal looking at the sound, evaluating it quickly and looking back. So it's in a way, it's catching whatever is present in the room and potentially evaluating is this important or not? And then you come back to, to whatever is, it might be that someone, explores, actually a gesture can also be something that's important. So it could also be sound and body language from your audience is like, aha, I see this person actually reacting to, to something. So can I be present with that and feel, aha, is this important to, to explore?

[21:40] Gerrit: So would it be right to say sound is sort of an equivalent for anything unforeseen that is happening or what, what do we mean by sound here?

[21:51] Janolof: Yeah. Well let's say the sound in the room, for example. Uh, yeah. But yes, I would say that it's something that arises in the moment.

[21:58] Gerrit: Yeah, I could imagine Now, now I'm going back to, the image of the, the circus clown. And, he, he has actually, I assume a certain plan, what he's going to do, and then somebody in the audience drops something, right? So that, that was one scenario I was imagining. And of course, similar things can happen, in a corporate setting, I, I suppose.

[22:20] Janolof: Totally. 

[22:20] Martin: I'm thinking of the, in the meeting room again, if somebody has an unexpected idea or somebody has a body language, you know, they, they are kind of making some sort of an angry sound or disappointed sound, to not just disregard it like it didn't happen, but actually recognize it happened and see is this important, is this not? And do I, do we need to deal with this? 

[22:50] Janolof: I agree. I agree. And this also what comes to me is this the elephant in the room. It might be that this signal that is shown is actually an elephant in the room, or if we unfold it, we don't know.

 And this also is following the energy of the audience, I would say. So can I really lean into where do we wanna navigate? I would say also aligns with that one, which is, again, presence is needed.

[23:19] Martin: And I'm, guessing that everybody else sees and hears the same thing. So how I react as a leader there, will be extremely important. It sends a signal to what is accepted and what is unacceptable. I need to deal with it because everybody else will observe me because they have seen or heard the same thing.

[23:41] Janolof: I agree. And this, this actually being so present and actually taking this to the surface creates a deeper trust. It might be feel awkward, it might be vulnerable in the moment, but it creates so much deeper trust in the long run, I would say.

[23:55] Gerrit: And by listening, I had two thoughts. One is when you spoke about the elephant in the room, it's maybe not only looking at the sound, but also looking at the silence that nobody is talking about. And then Martin, when you said the actually everybody is experiencing it, I think it's not only that people look at how does the leader respond, but let's say if everybody hears and sees the same things, they also hear what is not said. I think that is what distinguishes eventually the leader from everybody else by addressing it. Yeah. And that is also I think, very important aspect of leadership.

[24:40] Janolof: Yeah. So transparency is the word that comes to me in. And that actually, again, is a good bridge for the fifth one, I feel. It's the principle is: if you make a mistake and that's an unplanned action, see it as a gift and repeat it three times.

[24:59] Gerrit: What? You make a mistake and you wanna repeat it, you are out! What's, what's that? is very unusual.

[25:08] Janolof: Yeah, I know repeating three times, uh, is interesting, right? But what I feel is like if you make a mistake as a leader, you need to own it. You can't try to hide it. You speak about it and you learn from it. Because what you do then is you create a safe space of learning.

[25:27] Gerrit: Mm-hmm.

[25:28] Martin: Hmm.

[25:29] Janolof: That's what I feel.

[25:30] Martin: And this, I think this is so much easier said than done. Because our instinct is always run away from what's scary, what makes you uncomfortable, move away from it as soon as possible. But now with the clowning principles, it's actually so to say, forces you to stay in the uncomfortable situation because you need to repeat it three times. 

Really remain in the moment, which, um, really awkward.

[26:01] Gerrit: Yeah, my thoughts are a bit all over the place with this one because I see there is this one dimension where we often talk in organizations about 'it's okay to make mistakes', but very often it's lip service. a friend of mine. Rüdiger Müngersdorff, he once gave a talk. He said what he often observes in organizations say, yeah, it's okay, we make mistakes, everybody makes mistakes, and we learn from it, uh, and that's okay. But then something happens and then people say, yeah, 'but you made the wrong mistake. This is a mistake that was not supposed to happen, and now you are fired.' But I think I, I don't want to go down this pathway. What I find actually more interesting, I spoke before about the antidote to the hectic working life. Janolof, could this potentially be the antidote to perfectionism? I think that is another disease of the modern world that people want to be perfect, and being perfect means not allowing yourself sometimes necessary mistakes, which relates again, to being human. Does that make sense to you as, as an antidote to perfectionism?

[27:20] Janolof: It does, and I can totally relate to that. I've been in that space and I've really had the need of being in control, also creating perfection in the solutions that I've been part of. So totally relate to that. And going in too deep into perfectionism, we miss a lot of opportunities, I would say, and we don't create this opportunity to learn. I mean, the classical one is, oh, you learn from your mistakes, but do we allow ourselves to learn from our mistakes? Now, this was the wrong mistake, you're out, as you said. It's like, aha, so then we didn't allow ourselves to be or have a learning space because what comes to me also is this who are the best learners? Aren't those the kids, the children?

[28:13] Gerrit: Beautiful.

[28:15] Janolof: and also I would say that the child loves being in chaos, that's an exploration. So this also aligns with. Can I allow myself to be in the unknown waters? Can I allow myself to be present in potential chaos? I know that we will make mistakes. I know we will make mistakes. It's more can we, can we learn and redirect ourselves from this mistake. So, totally, yes I would say aligns with that.

[28:47] Gerrit: I, I wanted to pick up the, the playfulness. And I felt reminded of a yoga teacher of mine who was sometimes laughing at us adults when we get so tense in wanting to get the pose perfectly and we are judging ourselves and we are afraid of falling, for instance. And what do the other people think about me? And she said, you know, when, when I'm doing this in my children's class, they're just having fun. And if they fall, they laugh and they do it again. And I see perfectly Janolof where you are coming from. And I'm thinking now ahead at some point in time we lose this, right? We are, so is a, is a term being socialized where it's no longer okay to fall down, for instance. And I wonder how could we bring some of this playfulness, especially this playfulness in learning, into the corporate world. I, I don't know if you have any answer to that.

[29:56] Janolof: Wow. I, I think you're into something really great because I've been feeling exactly that. It's like, how can we embrace the unknown, playfulness, part that, that children can teach us? Because this was actually one thing that really awoke in me during this workshop. It's like, wow! It was such an amazing amount of energy surging through my body in these simple exercises that we did together. It's like, so this is actually what I feel that drama domain brings to this. It's like, wow, it, you feel alive. You feel really alive. Yes, you do mistakes, it's okay. You laugh, you laugh, and you applaud the mistakes because that's the purpose of it. So again, yes, how can we bring that and also allow ourselves to be playful to allow ourselves to be childlike, not childish, but childlike. I think this is actually also what the, what the clown brings to the table. And when you said they fall and then they repeat it, it's like exactly, that's what the guideline says number five:

right? Repeat it three times.

[31:17] Gerrit: And the key word that you gave me when I questions, how can we bring this into the corporate world, is this childlike but not childish. I think that's fantastic.

[31:28] Martin: And I'm thinking these five clowning principles is actually a guide to make it childlike because they are serious in the way that, um, if you do it with the sincerity and the open-mindedness to explore, it will give you a lot of positive energy. That was also one of the words I heard, and it'll actually help us with the behaviors that we need to open up the space.

[32:06] Gerrit: And Martin, you gave me another key word. A certain seriousness, right? So because the role of the clown can also be, to point out what is not okay, and as we discussed this earlier, clowning is eventually also related to the, the role of the jester in old times. Um, who is then allowed to bring up a very serious problem, but doesn't make it appear so serious. So in a way makes it funny, ironic. So there is also the kind of seriousness in, the whole fun if you wish.

[32:47] Martin: It's the enabler, the catalyst, to help people, invite people into start to explore perhaps a difficult elephant in the room, a difficult question that nobody knows how to address. Everybody knows it, but we don't know how to address it and, and here the clown or the jester is like the enabler.

[33:09] Gerrit: Wonderful. I wonder if it's time, if we should summarize maybe one more time the guidelines and rules and make a last connection to, to leadership here.

[33:21] Janolof: So the guidelines are: do one thing at a time. All action in eye contact with the audience. Wait three seconds before each planned action. Look at sound and movement with your whole head. If you make a mistake, which is an unplanned action, see it as a gift and repeat it three times. And then we have the main principle that we started with, like: don't try to be funny.

But what I feel now is like as we have explored this, I think we've opened up the door to this, haven't we? It's like, aha, so can we lay down our seriousness and invite more openness, more vulnerability, create more connection. I think this being funny part, being more alive, being more childlike, opens up. 

[34:24] Martin: I wonder, could we then also translate these five guidelines into something that resonates maybe more strongly with corporate leaders? So, for instance when we spoke about one thing at a time, of course we also want in leadership we wanna keep focus and do one thing at a time and focus of course on, on what is most important.

[34:52] Gerrit: And the eye contact we spoke about connections. So for leaders, do we make a true connection? Are we present, are we attuned with, with the people that are, for instance, in the same room with us.

[35:06] Janolof: Hmm, and also the, the three second rule, so to say is this really what's needed or not? Can I, can I really tune into to and feel this? Is this needed. Is this the, the action that is needed, is it aligned? 

[35:23] Martin: And, letting time to catch up. So to say without that, time, there's only reaction. But with the time we letting everybody feel what is going on.

[35:37] Janolof: What comes to me also is the react versus respond

[35:41] Martin: Mm-hmm. And then we had look at the sound with your whole head. And here the key word here for me was the transparency.

[35:53] Gerrit: Yeah, also what we once said this catching the details that no one else might, I think that is also incredibly important here. And maybe about the last one with the mistakes, i'm still not so sure about repeating it three times, but this attitude what, what can I learn from it, and having this also somewhat playful approach in, in leadership. And I was also thinking about this main principle, this 'do not try to be funny.' How could we translate this for corporate leadership? And I, I still haven't found the perfect solution, but maybe as a starting point, it could be around, 'do not try to achieve results.' But more about, and is actually my leadership credo, that leadership is creating the conditions for people to be their best. So first of all, people includes the leader, him or herself, and then of course the other people. And this emphasis of being their best is not, it's not the same as doing their best, but allowing them to be. I think that

[37:03] Janolof: Yeah. Yeah. 

[37:04] Gerrit: that sounds quite powerful 

[37:05] Martin: Hmm. Work. Work on the conditions. Work on the conditions. Yeah. 

[37:11] Gerrit: Yes, 

[37:12] Martin: Should we move into reflection questions, I have one on my mind.

[37:18] Gerrit: Then go ahead.

[37:19] Martin: I'm thinking of course, as a leader I don't want to be a clown at all times. For me, a starting point could be to think about when might be a meeting or when might be the, the good moment to try to practice and explore some of these principles. Perhaps without telling anybody else that that's actually what I'm doing. But what could be a suitable, uh, situation where I could start to try to practice and learn from what's happening.

[37:52] Janolof: Hmm. Yeah, one that comes to mind for me is, it might be a general one, but it actually aligns with the stereotype of the clown being present, being vulnerable, stepping into the unknown. So, when did you as a leader challenge yourself and stepped out into your growth zone and potentially showed yourself vulnerable in uncertain situations?

[38:18] Gerrit: Yeah, and what resonated so strongly with, with me was the presence and connection aspect. And perhaps one question could be: what is one thing that I could do differently to make sure I build a connection with people at work?

[38:40] Janolof: Great, I think now we have really explored deeply this, that sounded like a very odd perspective on leadership actually, the clown and art clowning, and we got really practical hands-on tips, how to develop ourselves in the role of a clown. Thank you so much Janolof, for, for joining us.

Thank you for having me, it's been, uh, it's been really fun.

[39:08] Martin: And if someone want to get in touch with you Janolof, I assume that connecting with you through LinkedIn would be the best place, right.

[39:17] Janolof: That works

[39:19] Martin: We will put your LinkedIn link in the session notes that you can find when you listen to this episode.

[39:27] Gerrit: Wonderful. Thank you so much, gentlemen. It was really a very enjoyable discussion. Well, this concludes then today's episode. If you would like Martin and my support in, for instance developing your leaders, be that in the company wide initiative or through individual executive coaching, please do not hesitate to contact us. This can be done via email to hello@secondcrackleadership.com. That's all in one word. And if you enjoyed the episode as much as we did, please remember to subscribe and tell a friend about the podcast. And if you could leave a positive comment or rating, we would certainly appreciate that too.

Bye for now.