Second Crack – The Leadership Podcast (Episode 39)

This transcript is AI-generated and may contain typos and errors.

[00:50] Gerrit: A warm welcome to Second Crack, The Leadership Podcast. I'm Gerrit Pelzer, an executive coach who supports personal growth and systemic change, using a combination of Western science and Asian wisdom. 

[01:03] Martin: And I'm Martin Aldergard, and I'm working with engaging teams in Change and Pulling in the Same Direction. And today we're going to talk about a real exciting topic, Gerrit, that I think is long overdue.

[01:17] Gerrit: Yes, indeed. We have two wonderful guests on the show who will help us answer a question that has been on our minds for a long time. And that is, what can women bring to leadership that men can't? A warm welcome to you as well, Dr. Melanie Maas-Brunner and Evelyn Chau.

[01:36] Melanie: Hi,

[01:37] Evelyn: Hi, 

[01:39] Gerrit: So, I'm delighted to introduce today my friend, Dr. Melanie Maas-Brunner. She is a chemist with almost 30 years of experience at BASF; that's the largest chemical company in the world. And while Melanie is a German national, she has also built an international career And has lived for quite some time in Canada and also in Hong Kong. And she truly had an impressive career. Diverse roles at BASF in research, production, strategy, and business, and this then ultimately led to her appointment as chief technology officer and a member of the board of executive directors in, I believe it was 2021. And I think that is truly an outstanding achievement. Recently, however, Melanie made the conscious decision to transition into non executive director roles, where she focuses on innovation, technology, and the green transformation of the manufacturing industry. Outside of work, she enjoys mountaineering, climbing, spending time with family and friends. and reading crime stories. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[02:53] Martin: And I'm equally excited to introduce Evelyn Chau! She's a real citizen of the world, born in Hong Kong and then moving along to the UK at an early age to attend boarding school. And she completed both her bachelor and master's in finance in London. She has worked at different global financial institutions in New York, Hong Kong, and London. And currently she's the director of corporate banking at HSBC Sweden. And her banking experience also includes working with distressed debt and finance of US sports teams in the NHL, NBA, and NFL. Apart from going back to Hong Kong to visit her family, she spends most of her free time traveling around the world, seeing friends, and she's trying to get to two or three new countries every year. This year, this has included Australia, Brazil, Chile, and Argentina. What really interests her is the different cultures, and that's why she enjoys working at an international bank, where she has touchpoints with many colleagues and clients all over the world. So, welcome to you too, Evelyn.

[04:06] Thank you for having me. 

[04:07] Gerrit: So we really have, I think, an amazing team on the show today. And let me introduce the topic. So, as our listeners may know, I love to explore how the brain works and how we can then use applied neuroscience in coaching to help leaders change behavior and overcome limiting habits. And what I learned from my teacher, the late Paul Brown, is that there are significant differences between the female and the male brain. And apparently, there are many women in male dominant businesses who often feel that they have to act more like men to be successful in their organization. However, One thing that Paul Brown always said is that instead, we should ask this question: what is it that women bring to leadership that men can't?

[05:00] And while I certainly have some ideas, I'm still looking for the comprehensive answer to that question. So I'm very happy that today we have two successful female leaders on the show who both work in, I would say, very male dominant industries, and yeah, both of them are at different stages in their careers, and hopefully getting some, a little bit closer to the answer to this big question.

[05:27] But perhaps before we go, to answer this question, maybe starting with Melanie, could you briefly share your, journey to leadership? Maybe there were some, key moments that you would like to share that shaped your career?

[05:40] Melanie: Yeah. Thanks. First of all, thanks a lot for, inviting me to your very interesting podcast, Martin and Gerrit, especially this topic is very close to my heart because it's really, it's popping up all the time when you move your, in your career in the company or in this, this very technical environment. And this is the key question for many of the, the, the female, employees, because I think they see that there's still a bias and to overcome this is very important, and I hope the podcast helps also in, giving some insights here. 

[06:09] Yeah, leadership. Um, I, I have to say, I think first of all, I'm a very lucky person. I don't know why I'm a lucky person and, everything, what's happening around me? I have always, the feeling is more on the positive side. So, I intentionally, started with chemistry because I thought that is something where I can manually do something, but also intellectually think about it.

[06:30] So this is kind of science where we already have to basically combine different types of working cultures. And, I thought, when I, when we've been together, Gerrit and I, we were together at university, staying at university, that's not my thing. I like to move things and university was a little bit too slow and too complex for me. So I decided to join industry at that time, not really being aware that this is so male dominated, but it surely was. I had some interviews and I can talk about this later in environments where they really told me you will be the first woman and, this is, It's not now, but 25 years ago or 30 years ago, it was exactly like this. Um, in my work environment, I had actually hardly any problem with that. So I think people were just accepting me the way I am. 

[07:24] And I think this is also something where I'm, very, I think as, as a leader and a person that is ambitious to, to, to, to move up the career ladder, you have to be confident that you are the person that can manage things. So, uh, for me, it was always combining the situation, I'm not looking for the next step, I'm never ever looking for the next step. I, I'm looking for a situation where I can enjoy my job. I can enjoy my environment. I have something, with a purpose to do and I really can change also my environment and that keeps me happy. And then something else was happening, then I got kind of questions, "Do we want to have the next job?" And I was always very much surprised that this is happening. But this basically was the same pattern all over the, let's say, my career of 27 years with BASF. So I'll stop it here. And I think Evelina also has to say something about it.

[08:17] Evelyn: Thanks, Melanie. No, I totally agree with you, especially that bit about, you know, it just, things just happen. I think it sounds a bit, like, fluffy sometimes, how things just happen, because usually I think, you know, when you go to university, people often tell you to kind of plan your career, you have to be more strategic. But life in general it doesn't happen that way as you have planned it. And I think for me, going into banking to finance is something, I grew up in Hong Kong. Both my parents, so both mom and dad, were both in banking. So I grew up in that kind of like world, you know, with friends, their friends, family friends.So I think I just kind of fell into it when it comes to, you know, why finance, why banking? I guess I looked up to my parents. And then I'm sure they kind of somehow influenced me as well in the background. And that's why you could see from, you know, from my university degrees, very, very much geared towards our business and finance.

[09:08] And in terms of, you know, how did you know the journey to leadership, Gerrit you're right Melanie and I were in a different kind of stage of our career. And with this leadership thing, I think I just kind of fell into it again. Basically, when you get a job and, usually when you get there, okay, you have no kind of former, former direct reports into you, but then what I found is that the team has kind of, the teams have been gravitating, towards, towards getting me to kind of, sit down with them to have one on one, they respect my ideas. And when they want to have questions about their personal development, they come to me because even though we usually have all have the same kind of manager because I'm more kind of, a bit senior than them, in terms of title, they want to kind of sit down and, and I like that because to me it shows that they value, my views and I, and I'm genuinely wanting to help them to develop professionally.

[10:01] So I think that is one side. And now, with a global responsibility of looking after my clients, I have to kind of basically, essentially lead a lot of the my other colleagues around the world as to how we want to kind of shape ourselves to, to help out and support our clients. So, that is another type of leadership. And on top of that, I'm also a mentor at work. So, I've signed up to be a mentor and I have a few mentees and they're around the world and it has been really fun. And in terms of the mentees, I have both men and women. Yeah, so I think it's just that wanting to share, my experiences and kind of what I think will help them to navigate when you work for a big institution.

[10:44] Martin: And it's really interesting to listen to these stories. How do we sort of say fall into leadership. And I can really relate to the same, it's, it's not so much for me, also a conscious choice. It's looking in hindsight, it's events just happening and we like it, and then we're perhaps naturally drawn into that because it's something when we experience it, we like to help people, we like to mentor, we like to guide, we like to make things happen. 

[11:15] Melanie: Yeah, but Martin, what you are saying is, I think, completely right. But I think there's also some kind of principle behind this, because if you are falling into leadership, this is not happening by, by chance. This is happening because people see that you are obviously good in what you are doing. So I think an organization, at least the larger organizations that, that are really, having some certain level, layers of, leadership, if you are doing a good job and just focusing on a good job, some other people will always see that you're really doing a good job.

[11:47] And if those people are, types of personalities that like to mentor people, that like to promote the right people, that like to build up a talent pipeline and you are at the right point in ,time, sitting in the right spot, then something like this can really happen. And this may be unexpected for, for me as a person, but the organization I think is working like that. And that's what I very much like. So also my, my advice here. People, it's always seen that you are doing a good job. So some people, especially maybe coming to our topic, women, they tend to, say, okay, oh, I'm doing something very well, but no one sees it. No, it will be. Evelyn, I think you have to say something as well.

[12:27] Evelyn: Yeah. No, I agree. And I think sometimes a subconscious thing, cause I'm, when I'm thinking about myself, you know, yes, I said we'll fall into leadership, but the thing is, this is how I met Gerrit and Martin. And I actually, about two years ago, I started listening to their podcast. I was looking on this, on my podcast app and I was like, okay, I want to know, I want to learn about leadership. So the thing is, it's not so kind of like, oh, I just fall into, I guess, Melanie, you're right, because actually, subconsciously, maybe I've been thinking about it. Otherwise, I wouldn't listen to, you know, Leadership Podcast, because I think, listen to these kind of podcasts, talking to other leaders, I think all these kind of give you some, and also learning on the job, I think that is a big thing, when you have the opportunity to have some juniors that you can lead, or colleagues that you can lead, I think all these kind of help and shape you to go on that path of being a leader as well.

[13:19] Gerrit: I would like to offer a different perspective here because I made a different experience. I actually got the feedback that apparently I was a bit too naive, thinking about you just do a good job and then people will notice. And Melanie, I think you made a point, maybe the right people need to notice it. And I remember one boss I had in Germany who said, well, do good things and talk about it. And I remember one particular situation. I was already in Thailand and then, um, a friend visited who was a colleague already in a senior position, a couple of years older than me. And then he asked, well, what, what do you want? What's, what's your next step? And I said, yeah, I can certainly do more. And then I said, Don't just sit here and wait for somebody to come to you and offer you a job. Go to so and so, I still remember who it was, go to so and so and tell him, I want this, you know? And I think that is in fact something I work a lot with my clients today, what I call perception management, where people who tend perhaps to be a bit more quiet and do good work behind the scenes to also then make sure that it is somehow noticed. So I just wanted to add this so that people, don't go into, what should I call it, being a bit naive and say, you know, I just do my work and that will be good enough.

[14:44] Melanie: And Gerrit, I'm completely with you. As a person having a role in a company, you always have to think about what's your intent. So I think it's very important to think about this: okay, okay, I'm doing now something which are very much like, so if something is happening, you have to think in scenarios and you have to also prepare the scenarios well ahead and the scenarios, I think, okay. Do I want to have a bigger team? Can I manage this? Is it my type of leadership to be in critical situations? Can I manage crisis? Um, do I want to be more visible in the organization? Do I want to be with external relationship work also? And then at the same time, I think it's also, at least that's what I always told my colleagues, specifically the female colleagues, Um, there's also the family aspect you have to take into account. You also have to make very clear what's your expectation for your private life. is it the family, is it a very, let's say, are you the one traveling the world on your own, do you want to have kids? So I think you have to bring those scenarios very clearly together. Always, in your mind, having a clear view, it can be in scenarios, but always talking about the clear view, because now no one knows what your intention is. So you have to talk about this very clearly, and you have to make also clear, that's something I don't want. And I think the, the more, transparent you are, the better for your career. So,

[16:07] Evelyn: and I think that's the thing. I agree with Melanie, but sometimes it's hard to know what you want, especially when, you think you want to be a leader. You think you want to be management. But what my what I want to say what Gerrit said, you know, being naive and you think they're quietly doing your good job, people would notice. If you're not, if you're not, not shouting, but if you're not showing other people that you are doing a good job because there are loads of people doing good jobs, by the way, usually at a company, there are loads of high performers. What distinguish a high one, one high performer for another from another is the fact that you do have to be a bit vocal in a, in a good way to show the right people, as Melanie pointed out earlier. And you showed that you want that leadership position. And I wonder, someone who is doing their really good job just quietly, is that person, does that person have the traits to be a leader? I'm just throwing it out there, I don't know, maybe that person just enjoys their good job.

[16:58] Melanie: I think that's really a fine line, what you are mentioning there, because what I also experienced, and I always, perceived as very negative. If someone is talking too loudly about this, his, intentionally say his achievements, if someone is talking about, okay, I did a great job and the organization exactly knows it's not him doing this. It was his team doing that. So the way you talk about success, your own success, your team's success, the way you position yourself in this whole, construct of different roles and responsibilities for, for, for projects, for your tasks. And so I think this is very much a fine line. And I felt that can do this with a very quiet voice. And you can also do this with a loud voice, but you have to find the right words and the right way of doing this. I think, I wouldn't say that the quiet people can't do this.

[17:49] Martin: Is there a risk that women leaders are perceived as very dominant and aggressive when they do this, and perhaps male getting away with this easier, or is this more of a stereotype.

[18:06] Melanie: I think the stereotype you're mentioning is clearly existing. In the room of people, if someone is aggressive, it's usually the male who is aggressive. And if a woman is aggressive, people look at her and say, why is she doing this, what does it mean? This is just not, she shouldn't do that. Even if she's saying exactly the same. So this is really a stereotype. Um, if the personality is really a more aggressive leadership type of person, I could stand having a man and a woman doing this. But if a woman is just playing a role, trying to be aggressive because she thinks that she should do this in a leadership position, this feels wrong. This is just not authentic, and this, this is also seen then at a certain stage, this will be seen. I think the team members will see it first, and at a certain time, also the management level will see this.

[18:58] Evelyn: And I think, on to your question Martin, I think men right now, because I think we're in a kind of in really heavy transition period when it comes to, you know, there are many different genders, but here we're talking men and women kind of gender leadership. It's a huge transition from the traditional more male leadership or boardroom to getting a bunch of females in. So going back to your question, Martin, I think men right now, or maybe, historically, has had more opportunities to,lack of better word, brag about their success because then, men did well, especially when I, when I was working in London, the whole pop culture is huge, and, a bunch of men would go out for a drink at lunchtime, and that gives a natural environment for them to talk about the work, their successes, their achievements, whereby I think as women, we probably, we might have, less of those opportunities, just those natural opportunities. So it could be, more accessible for men.

[19:52] Martin: So how have you dealt with this personally? Has this been a problem or have you, have you worked with this consciously? And, and also how, what would you say to, to young female leaders, how should you think about this?

[20:08] Gerrit: Yeah, and maybe Martin, if I can expand on this, perhaps also thinking about, did you ever feel there were advantages and disadvantages that you could trace back to the gender bias? So differences between men and women.

[20:26] Melanie: I think there's clearly everything what you just questioned is in some way happening. In terms of quota in large companies, I think there's really now the momentum that there is a fairer, let's say, promotion track record now also a male and female, and I think some companies even overdo this because if someone is promoted, not because the performance and the person is a good person for the, for the next step, but because she's a female, that's just wrong because this is also very visible in an organization and people look at this very specific example and they say, okay, that's why we shouldn't do this. Yeah. Yeah.

[21:06] Evelyn: It backfires. Exactly. I

[21:07] Melanie: exactly. And so I, I, I'm not so fine with the quota, but I'm fine with, okay, promotions really have to take into account, yes, we, we have to grow a talent pipeline, we have to start very early with hiring female talents, young ones, and then we have to take care that we are not losing them in the organization, but that we are trying to really bring them to a level that they can easily do their next step. I think that's the role of a big organization and also the HR organizations in doing this. I personally never ever had a big problem, but I was maybe a little bit more outspoken when I saw something like this. Just two, two small anecdotes. Yeah, when I did an interview for my first job, I was with one chemical company and the, let's say the head of the department told me, you have to be twice as good as all the men and you have to work double. And I said, Why should I do this? Yeah, because you will be the first, the first woman in my team. And I said what a nonsense, yeah, and so if this is the criteria that I have to work twice as much as the others to be to be as good as them, I don't do this. So I was very clear that this is not the right position for me.

[22:11] But I'm also, 

[22:12] Evelyn: Melanie, just on that one before your second one, he said that, he was saying something that probably many men were thinking back in the, you know, when, I don't know, did you say about 20 years ago? Maybe many people were thinking that, but they just didn't say it. So I give him credit for actually saying it. I give you credit for going, no thank you, why should I do this?

[22:30] Melanie: you're completely right. You're completely right. But I had also something where I feel I am a little bit this pop culture Evelyn was mentioning. Yeah, I had once a boss a couple of years ago and we had a management meeting and then we did kind of teamwork event, the cooking event. And I was the only female attending this, I was the only female in the management team at that time and then he started, he started with some very lousy and dirty jokes. I said, okay, this is, why is he doing this. And then I was not daring to tell him directly, but I told all the others and I left the teamwork event. And it got to him, yeah, that I was really heavily complaining. Yeah. And I think People also have to have very strict limits. Also, I think women shouldn't accept what's happening. And it's very difficult and also to decide in the situation, how can you, how can you deal with this what's just happening. Yeah, and I learned also many, many examples where people just couldn't deal with that because this was so sensitive and so hurting and so what's male power dominating. So I was always on the lucky side, this was not happening, I could deal with that. But I, I clearly understand there are different situations.

[23:41] Evelyn: And you don't want to be seen as being difficult. And that is why going back to what Gerrit said, should women act like men in senior positions, I think part of that is because you don't want to be seen to be different, you want to fit in. You don't want to be difficult, you don't want the majority to have a reason to say, you see, that's why we shouldn't do things like, you know, maybe we shouldn't have her,

[24:02] Melanie: I think this as a leader role model and, and both what you're mentioning, Evelyn, to not being seen as different, to fit in, but it is such a fine line to where you then also take a stand as a leader, like the example that, that Melanie mentioned. And I must tell you, I was with one of my clients in Asia in a senior meeting And there was a female director at the table and she was constantly put down and she left the room. Her face got white and she got so angry and she left the meeting. And the guys are saying, Oh, what's, what's, what's wrong with her today? It was so awkward. and then to compare, I was with one client in Thailand where the, the CEO said, Now, this is not how we're going to do things. And he asked the male to step out of the room and come back in again. And I saw this as two different scenarios where as the senior leader in the room, you got to make up your mind, where is your limit, because it's a split second decision.

[25:25] Evelyn: Yeah. And, and there is a cultural differences as well, I guess, kind of when we're talking about leadership, kind of the western world, and maybe you share with us, you know, I'm part of me, I'm not really surprised about your first example, on um, on, this woman left the room and these guys going, what's wrong, we can just carry on. And on that, on that note, talking about, you know, in the meeting room, I also have an example to share. I smile when Melanie talk about cooking class, because mine has something to do with like food and drinks as well. And it goes back to, what Martin said about you have to have a good senior leader who is supportive of diversity for example. I was in a meeting a few months ago it was just me and a few men and it was just me and men and there were some cakes and some coffee on the table. So I, I think we did our introduction, you know, we started speaking and then I, I started pouring the coffee and I kind of passed the cake around because I actually wanted a piece of cake myself. And, um, afterwards, kind of after the meeting, one of my colleagues who's very senior, and he said to me, he said, Evelyn, You know what, piece of advice. And I'm always up for advice. Yes, please. And he said, next time don't pour the coffee, do not offer the cake. If you think about it, you were, there were a few of us in the room, you were the only woman, all of us were much taller than you. Yeah, physically much taller than you, much bigger than you and you and and so it's already harder for you to kind of make a presence and on top of that if you're doing the coffee and the cake, there is this kind of, already people get biased subconsciously, they don't sit there and go, yeah, Evelyn should be pouring coffee, she's the only woman but subconsciously and you're doing it. So they have that. So that was a really good, really good piece of advice. Something small, right? It was, Evelyn, do not serve coffee next time in a meeting room, in a meeting, because you're just as important as any one of us. And I felt that, I knew that, but he said, make sure of that by not doing that. So yeah, so it's a big piece of advice and also small things that I think women can do, easy things, to kind of position ourselves.

[27:24] Melanie: I think I like your example very much, Evelyn, but also it connects also to what Martin just gave us, the two examples. I think it's really about the dynamics, you, you, you see there and you can influence them very easily in a negative and a positive way. And I like the example of the CEO who's told the male people to leave the room, because what you really need is kind of role model with the right way of dealing with diversity and inclusion. So, a good example would be if, one of the male persons in the team would have poured the coffee intentionally. So this would also be a signal, yeah, that there is no kind of stereotypes existing in that team. And I think it's also very important for the culture of companies that something like diversity is not only written in some nice papers, but it's also seen on every level of the organization. And it's very important. It's the tiny things that are showing that the organization is really capable of building up a really diverse culture in the company. And and therefore I think it's also important that not necessarily only the women are the role models for that. We need also male role models, having this diversity topic very high on the agenda. This is even more visible and more convincing than the other way around.

[28:39] Gerrit: Yeah. These, these are wonderful examples. And it brings me back to stereotypes and Melanie, what you said in your introduction, you spoke about confidence and you said something, I cannot remember your exact words, but something about, you need to be confident. And two things popped up for me when you said that, one is, What I believe might be a stereotype, maybe you can comment on this, that in general, maybe men appear to be more confident in themselves, whereas women may tend to be more critical. That would be part A, so to say, of the question, but more importantly, actually, part B would be how to be more confident when you are not, perhaps, naturally born with it.

[29:29] Melanie: Yeah, that's, I think, you are very, very right with your, with your comment. And I even have kind of very clear proof points that really male personalities are tending to be more confident. At BASF we, we regularly do feedback feed forward. So yeah, the team is giving you a feedback, with the survey, the peers, the upper management and you do your self assessment, and what I can really pinpoint this, the self assessment, the male ,self assessment is always over the average assessment, and the female self assessment is always below. So female leaders, they see, they always question themselves a little bit more. Am I really good enough in that, should I do more here, should I better communicate, and whatever. And male people say, Oh, I'm already great, I'm the best. And you see this, and it was the first time looking at that. I was just, okay, this is just, can't be right. And next time it was exactly the same, different group of people. And, but it's really important that this, this confidence, plays a major role that people are perceived as leader, because you can be quiet, but if you are quiet and confident, it's a difference. And, I got this confidence really also by, by, having people in my, yeah, in my work environment, be it mentors, that really helped me in seeing how, how they see me and telling me about it, giving me constant feedback, but also about people that trusted in me that I can do the next step. Because I remember very clearly that one person told me, Melanie, you will be promoted. And I said, Oh, this is a big role. I would have immediately 150 people reporting to me. I've never, ever done this. And then the person told me, yeah, but we trust that you can do this, and if I'm confident in you, I will always support you. So please be also confident in yourself. And this helped me a little bit in thinking about this, even if I was not able to do the, 100% right things in the, in the immediate beginning, I was always saying if I, if I fail a little bit here and there, there is an organization backing me up and helping me.

[31:29] And I think you are never, ever alone, but you have to find those people. They are not necessarily you are, you are the people sitting left and right from you. They might be in a different, whatever,peer group, in a different, it might be even team members that can do this, but those people, they can really make you confident.

[31:47] Evelyn: And I think, going back to men are more confident than women, I think sometimes when we talk about, when I think about more, the more traditional men, male managers, they are more ego protective. So they might not be truly confident, they might, they might just pretend to be confident. I think that is something that happens quite often. And I think when it comes to women, as Melanie said, you know, women comes across like you know, they're not as confident, they're self doubt, they're second guess. I think, look, these are negative words. How I want to see it is, I think as women, we're more empowering, we're more collaborative, we are more mindful leaders, not all women, and I think that is the difference. 

[32:25] And I, yes, and I agree a lot of the time men would talk much bigger, their achievement, exaggerate their achievements. Whereby women would underestimate or we'll just say, Oh, this is what we have achieved, and then we move on. You know, we have done this great big deal. And then we move on now because there's loads of other things going on at work. You know, there'll be another project that we have to do. So that is on the agenda bit.

[32:46] Melanie: And I think just a quick question, just a quick sentence on the diversity part, how I feel because I'm actually part of, apart from my day job, I'm also, part of the diversity committee, for the bank in Europe. And we have calls every, every other week. And I agree with Melanie, we have senior sponsors on this. So it's not just a, and it's men and women in this committee. And that is what is important. We need men and women in the committee and we need senior sponsors to show that this is important, this is something that we do want to drive within the organization. And what I see when it comes to diversity in leadership is that when you do have a diverse group of people around the table, it breaks down silos. Becauseotherwise, you have the majority, let's say the majority are men, there's a silo there already. It's hard when you just have like, you know, to be in the minority. But the more diverse the leadership team is, you break down silos, you bring in different perspectives. It can lead to maybe messier, could be messier discussions. Good things will come out of it. Evelyn, I think you gave this a very positive spin when talking about the positive aspects of female leadership. And that's exactly true. And I want to stress this a little bit because this is also for this podcast might be a very important topic. I also experienced that female leaders tend to have a way more open and constructive communication style. This means listening, listening more than talking, and also listening to different opinions and being able to then construct something more positive out of, out of different opinions. I got a little bit, maybe it's also a stereotype and not really fair, but usually some men tend to have an opinion, they listen to others. But they don't care. And that's very visible, I think that's kind of what I experienced in the, let's say, 80 20 rule is really happening. And this is part of empathy. There are, there are male and female personalities that are empathic. But in leadership roles, I clearly say this is more with women in leadership. And this empathy, I think, especially for companies that face problems, it's very important because if there's empathy coming with a crisis, you deal differently with the crisis. You focus also on the people, on the individuals, you focus on your clients and you do this with a little bit more, clearly more empathy. Yeah, you, you deal also with such situations, you involve your heart and not onlytough business decisions. And this is something which is very important, I think, for modern leadership anyway. 

[35:17] Martin: I really like this and I have learned a lot this starting with the comment from Evelyn putting this more positive aspect on what women leaders brings to the table. And I'm linking this now with what, you said, around what I interpret as, uh, The, so to say, the business value of diversity. And I think all the research showing that more diverse boards, more diverse companies have a better performance and they're more resilient to change. And when things go bad, they can, all these positive aspects of a leadership team then really coming to play. To find a faster way out of this situation. 

[35:59] I read research that on entry level, in these companies that were part of the survey, there was like 50 50 male and female on entry level. But already at first line manager, there was like 38 percent female.It already by the first, first promotion, it was already not full diversity. What's, what's going?

[36:26] Melanie: Yeah, I just, I think this is also a topic about when people coming into a company and thinking about their private and their business life. The male people starting there, they have in their focus completely their business career. And what I experienced, at least in the Western culture, that's more obvious to me, that then people think about their, they have a good starting company, they like it in the company, but they think about, oh, I want to have a family and I need to take care of both of it for my private life and my business life. So then I'm maybe 30 years old and what should I do right now? And then that's the first conscious decision not to take the next leadership level, but to basically put family as priority one. And for whatever reason, many companies can't deal with that. They can't just offer the same opportunity with having family and business life in parallel. And if you are thinking about it, it holds exactly true for all the male people. They also build a family at the same point in time. And obviously this is working.

[37:29] So I think especially in the Western culture we have, or in the Central European culture especially, we have to overcome this by, by having here also better role models and support functions and flexibility for the people and here and there. And, I think this might help. But what you are saying, Martin, is even worse when you're coming to higher levels, then they are just dropping out.

[37:50] Evelyn: Yeah. And I think Martin, I mean, we both live in, Sweden and, and I think very depending on the support that you get from, you know, from society, from the government, like, for example, like in Sweden, childcare is very, I mean, it is free, well, almost free, and you can see that when it comes to statistics, you know, kind of men and women, in the workforce and also when you go up the ladder a bit, it is a little bit more equal than maybe other parts of the countries because you know, we have that infrastructure here that to offer, women as well as men to have that kind of,

[38:22] Martin: And by, by regulatory, for instance, in how much paternity leave and that, that both the husband and wife needs to take the equal 

[38:31] Evelyn: Mm. 

[38:32] Melanie: I think just one example, that's also a good proof point. I know specifically in countries that allow for part time work or where part time work can be basically an option for a certain period of time. My experience is that there's only female people asking for part time, going down from 100 percent work to 80 percent work, because they need to have the feeling that there is flexibility for them. What actually is happening then is they are still working 100%, but they are getting less money. They just feel better about it, and in such a situation, I always say, okay, please work 100 percent and take your flexibility. And then with the 80%, you might not get the next promotion and so on and so on. And this has come, this is kind of a, perception that we have to overcome with good role models.

[39:16] Martin: And do you think, I'm just throwing this one out here, guys, but do you also think, the issue that you mentioned Martin from the researcher you read, comes from the fact that maybe we still have a bit of a pay, like pay in equality in, in in the workplace, maybe men still get a bit, still get paid a bit more than women, when it's, considering same role, same level. So when it comes to, as Melanie suggested, said, at some point people think about, do I want a family, your personal life, then maybe it is the woman, part of the reason why the woman decides that, well, if it is a man and woman relationship, that the woman decides, oh, well, you know what, I will stay home and, you go, I'll cut down on my time at work and you go and do 100%. Gerrit.

[40:01] Gerrit: Yeah. I was, I was only wondering if we should take a moment and also acknowledge that we're, uh, of course, having this episode to talk about differences between men and women, while at the same time, acknowledging at the end of the day, it always comes down to the individual as a person. And nevertheless, we certainly can see certain tendencies. And when we spoke about the positive spin to this conversation, I was also wondering in terms of diversity and inclusion, Melanie and Evelyn, do you have any suggestions? What can both of us, men and women learn from the other side to come, you know, not only to better business, but maybe even to a better society to which businesses have a huge influence.

[40:50] Melanie: This is a difficult question and is a kind of, historic, has a, had a historic starting point thousands of years ago. And we are developing as a society into something completely different. And I think we are in the middle of a big transition, which is already happening. And it's also, also with very positive signals already visible. And, on the individual level, I think also, the next generation will have completed different ways of thinking about, first of all, work life balance, and with this completely different, let's say it's not only about money and work, it's also about life and friends and family. This will immediately change anyway, because this is, as I experienced this now with my son and his friends and all the other people around me that have kids of the same age, he's 18 by the way. This is not then a female male driven decision anymore that you have life balance. So I assume that the society is moving at least in the let's say in the in the westernized world towards anyway a different balanced approach. And we were not just 30 years ago it was not so so clearly already there, but it's coming. And with this is also coming way more thinking about what's sustainability, what does it mean for me, what's sustainability, is meaning for the, for a company, what's the purpose of a company, what's my purpose in life? And those questions, I have to admit, I think 30 years ago, no one was asking those questions. So maybe some people that were a little bit more on the intellectual side were discussing this, but at that time was really, okay, I want to have a good life. I need to earn money. and I want to consume something and I want to have a better life than maybe my parents before. So, but this is now all changing. And I feel that this, leadership topic, diversity and inclusion will come very easily, much better. And really with this, the impact we are, we are now looking for, but not really having it yet.

[42:44] Martin: It comes totally naturally, it's not a problem like from my generation or like how we speak about it now, it's, it's like we're speaking about it as a problem, but what I'm hearing here, it's like a non issue.

[42:56] Evelyn: Yeah, it will be, it will be normalized over the years, and as Melanie pointed out, we are in the middle of a transition. So, like anything, once it's been transitioned, then it normalizes. It just become a normal part of life. But I think, when it comes to kind of, leadership diversity, I think it is important to have a balance. We're not sitting here going, we should only have women in the leadership around the table. Definitely not. As Melanie said, maybe as women, generally we bring in more kind of, we use our hardware more empathetic, but that is not going to make a, make a business strive. We need men as well, you know, not men, we need people around the table to, to make, decisions that could be tough on the employees, on certain employees, but it's the right decision for the, for the company that we work for. Hence, we need that balance between gender and also, between kind of different kind of diversities. Mm.

[43:51] Gerrit: It brings me back to Evelyn, one thing you said earlier, and you mentioned that you mentor younger people in the organization, both men and women. And so it got me curious, do you see tendencies that men want different things from you as a mentor than women? Do they have different questions? And perhaps most importantly, if you have advice for them, especially for women, what advice are you giving?

[44:20] Evelyn: I definitely get different questions. I think from my male mentees, definitely more still very much into investment banking, because it is still very much kind of, you know, the investment bankers earn all the money and they want to be there. They could be sitting in a really far away from that business division, but they want to know. That's fine. I think it's, it's good to be curious. and I know those guys, so I can, I connect them. They can have a conversation, hear it firsthand, what goes on. And I see myself very much as a mentor, as a connector as well, because I have, I do have a decent network within the institution. So they are much more, the male mentees generally more focus on that part of it. And then on the female and mentees that they ask a lot more questions about tell me about your career, how did you get to where you are, what are the things that I should be looking out for, how can I be more like confident and being assertive. I think these are very important elements and traits when, as a woman, when you work in a male, more male dominated industry to kind of, let's say, succeed or, so those are the questions. And I tell them, I said, look, we can't sit here and go, oh, we work in a male dominated industry and, oh, they need to change the environment. Well, as we know, it's not easy to change people. Then we have to ask, we have to take control, right? It's what can we do? It's the sense of agency that we have inside ourselves, what can we do? I ask them to think about, be more vocal, in a good way. Get yourself a good network internally, talk to your manager, tell him or her what you want. We know what you see yourself, not the next step, but even the next three steps. So you show your ambitions at the same time showing what you have done. Don't just do your job, try and do something more, then your day job that you have hired to do. That also shows initiative, that shows that your commitment to your job, and that shows you as a person, I can do more than my day job. And also, I think one last thing is confidence. It's very important. So How to build that up is, you need to know what you stand for, you need to know what you stand for, then you know what you are kind of fighting for and, that has to be quite clear in our minds.

[46:27] Gerrit: That's beautiful. And, and Melanie, listening to you today, you said so many things that triggered me. If you're not doing it yet, I would really love to see you in a coaching or mentoring role. And I wonder what advice do you have for younger women, maybe in male dominant industries who want to. Yeah, advance in their leadership roles, what would you like to give them on the way?

[46:56] Melanie: Yeah, I think we touched many aspects already here and there, just to make it very, let's say, precise. For me it's always very clear, I tell the young female leaders to be, be authentic. I think be yourself because it will be seen if you are not authentic, if you are playing a role, this will be immediately recognized and it doesn't help. So be the person you are. And with this kind of personality traits you have, you need to build then your leadership capabilities, and they might be different, but that's also true for male people. So that's the first thing. 

[47:29] Then be confident, what we discussed before, because this confidence will be, people will feel it, that you decide and work with your team in a confident way. So also the confidence will, will spread out and to your team members, it will be visible with the management. And confidence comes then, I think prerequisite here is you have to be also competent. You have to have experience. So you can't be confident without any background. So if you want to be good in something, you really have to be good in something. So don't look for something where you're not good. But look for something where you feel, okay, that's my home turf, here I want to grow. And then you can jump to the next level and do something else, but do this in a confident level based on your competence. 

[48:16] And the last thing, which is always very important, that's what we discussed earlier. Think about. Not career planning, but think about that's the things you want to see in your life, and that's what you clearly don't want to see in life. That's not necessarily the next career step, that might be the environment you're working in. That might be the time you want to spend for family, the time you want to spend at your workplace. But you have to be very conscious.If you put yourself in a situation where you don't feel comfortable because you don't want to do this, you can't perform. So you have to be very clear what you want to do and you need to talk about this. It's not just in your own brain, but you have to tell the people around you that's what you want.

[48:55] And maybe the very last point that's now very important for me now, but it should be also important for everyone. And I had a very nice discussion with one of my new colleagues, one of my new executive board members. They did, on board level, with the one of the big, headhunting companies, leadership survey. And then, she was then very open in doing this leadership survey, but then she realized, and they got the feedback from all the people sitting on board level, that she was the only one prioritizing fun at work very high. And I can really buy into that. So you, what you do, you have to have fun with it. This is not always funny time. There's always also tough time to come, but with the gut feeling. Uh, a little bit this, this should be something which is really, you're enjoying all the time. I think this will also help you in doing a good job. The same

[49:47] Martin: Wonderful, wonderful. Gerrit, is it, is it time to wrap up. 

[49:53] Gerrit: Indeed, I think, what Melanie just said sounds like closing remarks. And Melanie, I also loved your energy and passion when you shared this with our listeners and us. Just want to hear from Evelyn, is there anything that you would like to add as concluding remarks?

[50:09] Evelyn: Yeah, I think when I was, when you asked me the question, I was answering my thoughts, one thing that I kind of missed out was the fact that I think what is important is, one of the many things, but what is important, it is your, your internal network. I think it is very important to make sure that you have a very supportive manager. I know that sometimes we can't choose our managers and they are not people persons and so. But try and find senior people, and that is through your network, that is supportive. And I think a good mentor, just like the example I told you guys about the pouring coffee, you know, he would be someone that I go for. I have already a couple of mentors, I can't just be sitting with mentors all the time and mentoring other people. That would become like my job. But for example, he will be someone that I would like to have as my mentor if I, in the future, if I need another mentor. Find someone who's supportive, who understands what you want and who can actually leverage their network to help you to get the next steps and these might not be immediate next steps because I don't like it when mentees say, Oh, can you get me, would you be able to get me into that area of, banking? I said, that's not my role. Right. That is not, I'm not, you know, I can't do that, but I can give you tools, I can share my experiences, different skills to maybe eventually get you there if you still want to. So yeah, so I think good network, a good mentor, supportive mentor is important for your career.

[51:28] Gerrit: Beautiful. And if our listeners would like to maybe learn more from you or reach out to you, what, what would be the best way of connecting with you?

[51:39] Evelyn: You can reach me on LinkedIn. So if you search my name, Evelyn Chau, you will find me there and I'm sure Martin and Gerrit, you will put it on the notes.

[51:48] Gerrit: That is what we will do. And Melanie, same for you.

[51:50] Melanie: holds true for me, just look me up in LinkedIn and then approach me. I'm very happy to help you.

[51:57] Gerrit: Excellent. And you will find Martin and myself also on LinkedIn, of course. Thank you so, so much for being our guests today. It was absolutely wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you.

[52:10] Evelyn: Thank you for having us.

[52:12] Melanie: Thanks for the very interesting discussion we had. Thanks a 

[52:15] Martin: Great. Thank you and have a nice rest of the day, everybody.

[52:20] Gerrit: And this wraps up today's episode. If you enjoy our conversations, don't forget to subscribe to Second Crack on your preferred podcast platform. And we'd really appreciate it if you could share the podcast with a friend. And of course, a positive review or rating would mean a lot to us. For more insights about our work, go to secondcrackleadership. com. That's all in one word. And we would also love to hear from you personally. Send us your thoughts, questions, or feedback at hello at secondcrackleadership. com. 

[52:55] Thanks for tuning in and bye for now.