Second Crack – The Leadership Podcast (Episode 34)

This transcript is AI-generated and may contain typos and errors.

[00:11] Gerrit: Dear listeners, a warm welcome to Second Crack, The Leadership Podcast. If you're new to the show, this is where we explore everyday leadership dilemmas and paradoxes, and where we invite you to self reflect. I am Gerrit Pelzer. I work as an executive coach and I bring to my coaching a combination of Western science and Asian wisdom. Joining me today, as always, is my dear friend and business partner, Martin Aldergard. Martin specializes in driving change and transformation within organizations, and what we both have in common is that we always put people at the center of our work. Hi, Martin. How are you today?

[00:54] Martin: Hi Gerrit, I'm fine. It's the highlight of the month, our monthly conversation.

[01:01] Gerrit: Because we have a wonderful guest on the show. It's Noah Sheperd. And I've known Noah for a long time, I think more than 10 years. And I've been wanting to get him on the show, basically, since we started, because I hardly know anybody else with such a broad leadership background.

[01:24] So, Noah, you moved to Thailand from the UK in, I believe it was 1993, and you have held leadership positions in small, medium, and huge multinational businesses in Thailand and other parts of Asia. You have also been in various industries from hospitality to manufacturing, and you are now basically retired from employment, but you run a consultancy company and you're specializing in helping manufacturing businesses in Thailand. And I think a part of the history, it's, it's really astonishing. You had situations where colleagues of yours were shot at, you had to deal with strikes, at one point in time, you had to have a bodyguard. And before I make this list much, much longer, first of all, also a warm welcome to you, Noah.

[02:29] Noah: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

[02:32] Gerrit: The pleasure is ours. And so with this background, we had actually the challenge to say like, what, what do we want to talk about? Because we could fill a number of episodes with your knowledge and experience. And at the end of the day, we decided to talk with you about leading change, uh, perhaps with a focus on leading change in a foreign country. So, what gets you so excited about this topic of leading change?

[03:07] Noah: It's interesting because, you know, in the past I've had jobs and work which have been, how can we say, boring, where you've had to do the same thing day after day and you go to work and you come back in the evening and you say, what have I, what have I actually achieved other than doing what I was meant to do? And the difference between that kind of work with management and doing something that involves change and improvement is, is poles apart. And change and improvement is incredibly rewarding, it gets the dopamine flowing. and you come home from, you come home from work at the end of the day and you feel I've really achieved something. And that's, that's really the thing. That's really the thing that has driven me over the years in working in organizations that have to go through change.

[04:00] Martin: Yeah, and I think this is what big part of what motivates leaders, right? To make a difference and see the difference in results, to see the difference in people, the relationships that you build, how you develop people, all these aspects. what is the most challenging part of leading change?

[04:20] Noah: Well, for me, and I mean, of course, it's, it's, it's different for everybody, but for me, for the last 30 or so years, I've been doing it in what is effectively a foreign country. So managing that in an environment where people are speaking a different language to your native tongue, have different customs and everything else, that's the challenging part of it. And And that's the fun part of it as well.

[04:47] Martin: In my experience, if I might add, I also think it's on one way, it's a little bit easier in a foreign culture because you're, it's more natural to not assume things, to keep your ears open and be on your toes. 

[05:01]  I do agree with that, it's easy to be complacent in an environment in which you are comfortable.

[05:08] Gerrit: Noah, that you said you find this so rewarding, for me when I was still in the corporate world, I found, driving change one of the most frustrating parts. And I'm very curious to hear what you see maybe as the key success factors. So if other people are listening today and would like to hear from you how you managed introducing these changes successfully.

[05:33] But before we go into these details, we actually have a small favor to ask from our listeners. We are offering this podcast for free. We do not receive any compensation for this kind of work. And trust me, it is quite a lot of work. So our biggest reward is to see you enjoying the show. And we also enjoy when we can see the podcast grow.

[05:58] So if you enjoyed this episode, it would really help us a lot if you could share a link with just one friend. And of course, we would also appreciate it if you could leave a positive comment or rating on your favorite podcast platform. Ja, Noah, back to you. Where do we start? What do you think are the key success factors from your, as you said, 30 years of experience managing change successfully in, a foreign country in particular?

[06:31] Noah: Well, firstly, can I just pick up on that, on the F word that you, that you mentioned, frustrating. Um, the F word was frustrating. I didn't, I wouldn't ever say that I haven't gone through frustrating times. And at times it's been extremely, frustrating. So I don't want to sound as though I'm sugarcoating, The whole leadership of change at all, of course it can be difficult, so I'm with you a hundred percent.

[06:59] Um, the three key, things that, that I would, the three key factors. Firstly, it's not a race. you can't bring change immediately. It does take time and people have to understand that. And the second thing is that everybody needs to be involved in that change. This isn't someone coming in and waving a magic wand and saying, we're going to change and we're going to change in three months; that doesn't happen. You have to involve everyone from the top to the bottom, from the leader down to the cleaner. And the third point that I would mention would be communication. The messages need to be crystal clear and you don't communicate with everybody in an organization the same way. Because you're dealing with people, you're dealing with people of different experience, different education, different skills and that communication often has to be quite different depending on who you're communicating with.

[07:58] Martin: These three are, are really great examples, top of mind examples, I think that we as leaders can learn a lot from. And if we start with the first one, it's, it's not the race, the pacing of change. Could you illustrate that with a short example from your, from based on your experience, Noah?

[08:22] Noah: Sure, well I, I was, I was hired for a, a fairly large, company, to run their, Thailand operation some years ago. I was employed as a, as a local hire. The business had great products, it had skilled people. But it was rather stagnant and the management there had been there for some time. It was very much a, a top down, and dare I say, old style, management in the company. Um, the figures were below expectations, and the figures improved when someone came from headquarters for a, for a couple of months and then, then they went back to the, to the, to the old baseline. Multinational companies, you know, they look at quarterly results and, um, the improvements and the changes and everything were looked at quarterly, but we needed to bring in changes that would be long lasting and, uh, and give good results continually. So my boss at the time said, you, you know, you really need to bring in some changes here. And I said, yes, of course, I understand that. He said, uh, do you think you can do it in five years? And I said, well, can you give me three? Because I didn't think that five years was, was, necessary. Um, but in evaluating them, this was, this was a couple of months after I'd started, but in evaluating the business, I'd had to spend time really understanding the business as a whole. You can't walk into a business and change things from day one. You really have to have a clear understanding of what goes on. And the next, and probably the most important thing there is to understand the people. Um, this was an organization of several hundred people. You can't understand several hundred people within a couple of months. Um, but you can understand and work with key individuals to find out what makes them tick, what doesn't make them tick. what their frustrations are, what they enjoy doing, how they like being communicated with, and so on. You then need to really understand the processes in the business from, you know, from start to finish, from when an inquiry comes in to when an order goes out and everything in between.

[10:36] Unless you understand those processes, you can't make a good evaluation on how long the whole thing is going to take. And then finally, what is the communication within the, company that you're working in right now. Are those communication, methods, approaches effective or, or not?

[10:56] So, you know, really it's not a race to finish fast. It's about creating a new environment, a new way of working and maintaining and continually improving those changes that the team has made. So, not too quick, but in a good pace.

[11:16] Martin: I assume it's, it's on one side, it's a lot about managing expectations through communication, both expectation upwards and downwards and horizontally. But the other side also to managing short term results versus the long term improvement, the long term value. This is also what I'm hearing from you here.

[11:38] Noah: Exactly, exactly. You have to get those monthly, quarterly figures are what count for these large businesses. So, you're juggling two things at the same time.

[11:49] Martin: Yeah, and it might also be, to build on that, it might also be what motivates people to see that change is possible to see the progress and to make progress visible. If we have a vision that is so many years out, it's very difficult for people to connect to that vision. But if we can start to see the first stepping stones towards a longer lasting change, so quick results in the ways also then to motivate everybody to step behind you and, and contribute.

[12:24] Noah: Yes, absolutely, and you can't really, you can't really tell people I want to, we want to make all these improvements and see an improved business in three years because then they will only get motivated at two years and nine months, because that's the kind of environment they're used to working in. So don't, don't give the game away.

[12:45] Martin: yeah, yeah. How was it, how was it received when you kind of, you got five years, but you said, I only need three. Wasn't there then people saying, yeah, what's the unnecessary stress here?

[12:58] Noah: I just felt that five years would, drag the whole thing and you wouldn't have the momentum that you would need to get those changes happening and people excited about them. Because people do like to see when things do actually improve and people see the results themselves. They get excited by it as well. So, you know, let's do it faster rather than slower, but not too fast.

[13:21] Martin: Mm-Hmm. and induce a sense of urgency to, reasonable amount.

[13:26] Noah: Yes, exactly.

[13:28] Gerrit: Well, what I typically experience with my clients in coaching is that the expectations are the other way around. We want change and, uh, It's okay if it's tomorrow, but if it can be done today, that would be even better. And I wonder if you have been also in situations where it was the other way round, where maybe the expectations from stakeholders were basically impossible. And I wonder if you have any suggestions or experience to share in such cases.

[14:03] Noah: I, I, I would, but, um, the fast changes would probably be just results rather than overall organizational, change,

[14:15] Martin: Mm-Hmm

[14:16] Noah: we, you know, can we, can we reduce our scrap by 1 percent within the next three months, that kind of thing. I don't see that as being fundamental change, I see that as a quick win result.

[14:28] Gerrit: Yeah, 

[14:36] Noah: short term results.

[14:39] Martin: I think this is a very nice observation and a very important learning point

[14:45] And in, term of the second point that you mentioned, the importance on involving everyone, and I think for every leader people is always at the center. So I, I really like that this came immediately as one of your top three most important key success factors. Do you have a, do you have a good illustration of, how you involve everybody in your change efforts?

[15:15] Noah: Yes, and of course one of the things that's maybe a bit strange when bringing in this kind of change and involving people is that in the, in the, shall we say, Southeast Asian work environment, under the classic management system, people are told what to do. And they're not involved in that, decision making process or in that change process or anything. Go and do this and, and come back to me with the results tomorrow or, or whatever. So, I mean, in, in, in the environment of, uh, manufacturing in a factory, which is where I really worked for, for most of the time, you have to involve everyone, as I said, from, from senior management right down to the, to the people who are the cleaners.

[16:00] And, um, in my case, in this example, I would start with the, with the management team itself, giving a clear expectation, an explanation of what the, what the expectations are. while explaining to the management team, one of my little tricks has always been blame your boss. you know, If you've got a, if you've got a message that you have to convey that they don't want to hear, you can say, well, I've, I've been told that I have to do this and we have to just get on with it guys. Um, so blaming, blaming your boss is okay. That's what they're there for. and explaining that we have to start doing different things differently to achieve the goals and, and that this will be both a top down and a bottom up approach to change. And that's when the, when you get the raised eyebrows, when you start talking about bottom up, because the general mindset is that the people at the bottom of the organizations are the doers.

[16:57] They're just told what to do and their opinions are not important. And you're coming across with a message saying, actually, they're as important as you, maybe even more important than you because they're the ones that do the day to day work that create the value for this organization. You're just managing that.

[17:17] So in involving everyone, we're empowering people from the, from the top to the bottom. we're trying to let people make decisions for themselves, giving them clear guidelines of how they can make those decisions themselves, rather than being told what to do, and certainly letting them make mistakes along the way.

[17:39] I'm not criticizing them for it. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to experiment. but we have to learn from those mistakes. And that brings out a really big organizational change. And in, in the case that we're talking about, it was very much a, um, a hierarchical pyramid. of um, organizational structure. That doesn't work very well for change in my experience. the hierarchy is not, um, hierarchy is bureaucratic. hierarchy does not involve the people at the bottom of the pyramid. So you may have to flatten out the organization and do some restructuring, to enable faster communications and decision making.

[18:27] And that can be painful and people don't, don't always go along with that. Um, the other thing, the other thing I would say talking about the bottom of the pyramid and lower down the pyramid, you have to encourage people at every level to listen to your subordinates, because as I've said before, they are the people that are the doers.

[18:49] They are the people that are in a factory operating the machinery. They know where the problems are far more than anyone else. In the organisation, allow them to be heard, allow them not to be scared to speak up. Speak out and that, that happened, that takes time. 

[19:05] One of the, one of the things that the messages that I've always tried to get across is, is I am there and we should all be there as leaders to make everybody's life easier, not harder. We want you to go home at the end of the day, feeling not exhausted or super tired, but feeling okay, we can now go home and enjoy our family life, our social life and whatever and not take that burden of work home, home with us. as an example of involving, operators, on the factory floor, one of the things that I've done, and in this case, history, we, we certainly did, was, um, we took everybody back to school, metaphorically, the operators, on the shop floor, they all went to school, they all learned how to, draw graphs.

[19:58] Um, and that was the last time they ever drew a graph in their life. And they never really had a clear example of what a graph actually was for. And we took them through the whole process again of simple mathematics, arithmetics, developing graphs and things like that, and showed them how we could use the data of what was on the shop floor and present it in graphical format so that it could be understood by others in the business.

[20:24] And that was, I mean, that was. The people who actually went through that process were amazed by this. I mean, the feedback was incredible. I thought there was going to be huge resistance. There wasn't. People were actually coming back saying, well, I learned that at school, but I didn't know what it was for. Well, now you do. Um, so for example, if, if an operator has to, he has to make so many parts per hour, you know, what do we do with that information? Who, who communicates it? Well, Maybe not your supervisor, the operator can communicate it to, a daily meeting, the operators can take turns to communicate that information of their achievements in daily meetings so that you are involving them in the whole process, not just saying go off and make a hundred parts an hour or whatever it is.

[21:12] And the other thing is, How, you know, generally, how do you, how do you deploy that strategy through the organization? So let, let's say, we have a big goal of increasing output by 25 percent over 18 months. Well, you know, how is that relevant to someone on the shop floor? What is it that they have to do on a daily basis, on an hourly basis to achieve that?

[21:39] Well, it might be just for that person that they have to produce 100 units an hour and nothing more than that. And if they produce 100 and someone else produces 100 and those are our goals for the shop floor, then we will increase that output to 25 percent over 18 months. And that's how they play that part in doing that, but they don't have to be involved at the high level.

[22:04] of strategy because it might not even interest them.

[22:07] Gerrit: Yeah, if I can pick up this headline of involving everyone, um, let's say if we take any handbook or article on leading change, I think, yeah, we'll definitely find this "involving everyone". And I think it's easily said and sometimes hard to do. And while I was listening, To you, I was thinking of two facets of this phenomena.

[22:33] So you already said, especially in Thailand and maybe also other Asian countries, we have Organizations are often more hierarchical and, people at the top of the pyramid you mentioned, they decide and the others just execute. And I've seen the two facets I've seen is one person I was coaching shared with me, you know, over the weekend, our leadership team, we locked ourselves in and we developed the new vision for the company.

[23:01] And now we're rolling it out. So this is then often the view of top people, who follow this idea of, yeah, we, we decide and others execute. but I've also seen it the other way round where people maybe like you say like, yeah, we need to involve everyone. And let's say for instance, the knowledge about how we can optimize manufacturing is on the shop floor.

[23:29] And then I'm coaching, you know, other leaders, and again, I'm saying maybe a bit like you, said, yeah, you know, I want to hear from them. And then they go as a senior person into the room, they invite 15 people from the shop floor and say, tell me, tell me what's going on. And then nobody says a word because there is this power distance, people are not used to it.

[23:53] And I could imagine based on what you said before, you may have encountered similar situations where you had Best intentions you wanted to hear, from all employees, but has it then also been the case where they didn't want to say anything or didn't know what to say? And if yes, how did you deal with that?

[24:17] Noah: Oh, absolutely. I mean, you can't get a hundred percent participation from everybody. I mean, we're dealing, we're dealing with people here and some people will just not be engaged. You can't get a hundred percent engagement and that's okay too. Um, that's okay too. I haven't seen, I've never come across any organization where you get a hundred percent participation in everything.

[24:41] Martin: And another aspect that I'm thinking of here is when what happens with the managers in the middle, the supervisor, when, when the shop floor, so to say, becoming involved and becoming motivated and taking a, a bigger part in co creating change.  In, in this pyramid organization, the status, the power of middle managers, they might feel threatened and they might question, you know, what happens with my role? I'm usually the one reporting the numbers. I'm usually the one that, that bringing suggestion upwards. How, how do you help middle managers to find the role and feel non threatened during this change?

[25:33] Noah: It's a very good question because in many cases, that's the hardest, the middle management and is the hardest, is the hardest bit to change for exactly the reasons that you are, that you are saying. and that's where you get the big resistance. Um, it's, it can be, it can be painful for them. What I have found, um, is that once they realize that their lives have become easier and they don't have to go running around chasing things all over the place, they accept that. And then they find they have more time during the day because they're not chasing problems all day long, you can give them other responsibilities in the business. And that I've done and that I've found has been very effective. For example, you might have a supervisor and you start giving them responsibilities across the business to do with safety and safety audits and things like that.

[26:33] Something that they hadn't really done before and focused on. But it gives you that opportunity with people's time to expand those responsibilities that they had. And in many cases, I've seen supervisors who have completely changed their roles during this change because they've passed on the responsibility, if you like, down to the shop floor. It releases them to move into completely different positions within the organization and progress their careers as well.

[27:06] Martin: I had a consulting mentor in Sweden and he, he said in change, of course, it involves everyone and when we empower the bottom of the pyramid, that is a knock on effect upwards in the organization. So everybody, every level in the pyramid, they need to step one level up, and work more one level up than they used to do. 

[27:31] Yeah, let's move into the third key success factor. Noah, you were speaking about the importance of having a clear message, of course, communication tailored to the different audiences in your organization. Can, can you expand on that?

[27:46] Noah: Yeah, certainly. I mean, communication is, is multifaceted, um, I think. And, you know, quite often when we talk about communication in a large organization, again, it's one of these top down things. Getting the message across. But I, I think quite often organizations internally get it wrong. the boss will stand up and do a town hall meeting, and everyone stands there for half an hour and half the people get extremely bored and everyone goes away and says, what, was that all about?

[28:17] I, I find town hall meetings are just for show. They don't really get the message across to the people that you need to get the message across to. You need to have different channels of communication that are relevant to each level within the organization and to individual people as well. So, I would say, you know, firstly, your management formal meetings, during those meetings, in communicating that change, you need to set about time to talk about the change, to talk about what went well, what didn't go well, what you need to do next, what you need to improve on, or not do. That would be your formal communication with the management team. And then there are various ways of how do you communicate that out at different levels in the organization. it might sound old fashioned, but I've always I've always found and still found that a good old fashioned newsletter works quite well, something that might be given out, at the end of the month with a, with a, with a pay packet, for example. and then, and then you have the more modern methods of communication, for example, internal social media, and there are various different platforms, Facebook, for business. It's a private network. You can do it through WhatsApp groups, Line groups, or so on, that can work quite well. Encouraging people internally to post and comment. And The reason why that works well, in my opinion, is because they're used to doing that in their private lives as well.

[29:56] And if they bring that method of communication that they're used to dealing with into the work environment, it becomes more fluid and less formal. And, you know, people like to like, communicate, comment, and so on. And you can communicate the changes that are going on through those kind of platforms. In this, case history that I would, I would talk about, you know, one of the common things that is, that is mentioned certainly in, the West is you can't take your mobile phone onto the factory floor.

[30:28] for whatever reason, I've never quite understood why. I actually encourage people to take their mobile phones onto the factory floor to use, the internal network during, during break times and at lunchtime, and even communicating during the work time. It was easy in an environment in Thailand because just about everybody had a mobile phone, had a smart device, in their pocket anyway.

[30:53] and then there's the, the other formal kind of, if you like lower level shop floor meetings before each shift where operators would take KPIs and, improvements and develop. cascading reporting that is relevant at each level of the organization so that people are only having to deal with the things that are important to them rather than having to sit through all the nonsense and boring stuff that they really don't, don't care about.

[31:25] but you know, there's, there's no cookie cutter solution to this. We're dealing with people, we're dealing with people in different work environments. and the people themselves in the organization, need to help develop the communication system that works for them. So it's, it has to be tailor made.

[31:45] Martin: Yeah. And I think this last point, there is so many points that resonates and so important of what you're sharing. But this last point is, I think, is so vital that Tailoring how we communicate within the organization is in itself a big part of the change. So it's not only a mechanism of change, it is the change in itself.

[32:08] Gerrit: Yeah, and well, I was, listening to you, Noah, I think I've never really heard it in this clarity, the importance of just looking at how people communicate in their personal lives at home, and how can I bring this to the workplace, because then that will be a natural expansion of that.

[32:31] And the other thing that I found quite important is We started by saying we need to have the clear message that is tailored to each audience, but I think it's also the quantity of the communication, isn't it? So to number one, bring it into everybody's mind all the time. Like you said, when maybe people have a meeting, we always allocate some time to talk about the change, because otherwise we get so overloaded with.

[33:03] Messages, how can we, you know, how can we make the change relevant? And then by, by, by talking about it again and again, and then also using this to let people know, Hey, we're making progress, right? So that they can be proud of their, achievements so far. That's really wonderful. I wonder if you need to add anything to the communication aspect to the message.

[33:30] Martin: I have a question to Noah here. How do you see using Manager Supervisor as the communication channel? When would you prefer that or, in what cases? And versus communicating, you know, more from the top down when you want Not, delaying communication or not wanting communication to be, colored by the views of the managers.

[33:56] Noah: it's a difficult, one, Martin. I mean, I would say a healthy mix of the two.

[34:02] Um, again, you know, it really depends on the organization. Effective communication from the manager level down is extremely important, but sometimes the boss has to step in, it's also, and I didn't mention this, I mean, the boss being present. A lot of the time, you know, not spending time in your office, but spending time and walking around on the shop floor and talking to people is extremely important in that whole communication thing. Oh, did you hear about this? You know, did you, blah, blah, did you, what do you think about that? And so on to reinforce the message that's, that's coming through as well as talking to people about their day to day problems and achievements and everything else is extremely important.

[34:48] So I would say a healthy mix.

[34:53] Martin: And, uh, I think this as a role model, when you're saying, uh, walking around on the shop floor, I think that also sets the precedence for your more junior leaders to start to copy yourself and automatically also then start to listening more of what's going on and spending less time in meetings with other managers, I guess.

[35:12] Noah: Exactly.

[35:14] Martin: Yeah.

[35:15] Gerrit: Wonderful. Yeah, so I think we've covered these three key aspects that you mentioned. Change is not a race. one other key aspect is to really involve everyone in the change process. And then we just covered the third aspect, which is the clear message that needs to be tailored to each audience, and we typically end every episode with some reflection questions, which leads me to the big question, who wants to make a start?

[35:44] Martin: I, I can, I can go first and then perhaps Noah can go last so you have a chance to add a point on top of what myself and Gerrit are sharing. I have a simple reflection question: As a leader, again, to, to reflect on what motivates me to participate in this particular change journey?

[36:09] It might be the the sense of achievement in terms of driving results, it might be in sense of developing people, developing myself, I might be in it for the money, I don't know. again, since, since change is not a race, what is my motivation to stay on this long term race?

[36:32] Gerrit: That's a great one, and it's the foundation for mine. I hadn't thought about this, but it goes to the second key point, involve everyone. And the question I would suggest for leaders is: Do I understand the people I work with enough? In other words, Martin, you mentioned what motivates the leader in the change, but different people have different reasons to come to work and they are motivated by different motivational factors. So do I understand the people involved in the change enough? What are their needs? And how can I, what's in it for them if we achieve this change? This would be my quick reflection question. Noah, anything to add? Yes.

[37:26] Noah: I'd like to add some numbers, if I may. In the case history that I've given, what we actually achieved in those three years. Our people turnover dropped from 14 percent to 1.5 percent. Our incidence of accidents dropped from an average of 12 a year to 1 a year. The quality of our products that left the factory, dropped from 2, 400 defects per million to less than 100 defects per million, and our customer service, which we measured by what percentage of orders were fulfilled on time, went up from 81 percent to 97%. So, those were some key metrics that came as a result of this change over three years, which everybody was obviously very happy with.

[38:25] Gerrit: Yeah, I mean, that's, really amazing, Noah, and thank you for sharing all your wisdom and experience. Now, based on My work with my clients, I can say all my clients are in one way or another involved in change. And if they listen to this episode and they say, well, you know, I would like to hear more from Noah, eventually want his help in supporting change in our organization. Who should reach out to you and how can they contact you?

[38:58] Noah: Thank you. I have a website, it is shepherd -partnership. com, and shepherd is spelt as in the man that looks after sheep.

[39:08] Gerrit: And no worries about the spelling. We make sure we put a link in the session notes of the episode.

[39:16] Noah: thank you.

[39:17] Gerrit: Yeah, Noah, again, big thank you for being on the show, Martin, thank you as always.

[39:22] Martin: Thank you, Gerrit. And thank you, Noah.

[39:25] Noah: My pleasure.

[39:27] Gerrit: And this concludes today's episode. If you like what we do, please subscribe to Second Crack on your favorite podcast platform. It would also be wonderful if you could recommend our podcast to a friend, and of course we would love it if you could leave a positive comment or rating. For more insights about our work, visit our website at secondcrackleadership. com. That's all in one word. We are also curious to receive your feedback, your questions and comments. Feel free to reach out to us at hello at secondcrackleadership. com. 
Bye for now.