Second Crack – The Leadership Podcast (Episode 33)

This transcript is AI-generated and may contain typos and errors.

[00:00] Rachel: My definition would be assertiveness is clear, respectful, constructive communication that is not driven by emotion, although it is likely emotion will be present. And another point I think it's important to make is, I've noticed that the term assertiveness can often be used interchangeably with the term aggressive, and they really are very different. 

[00:38] Gerrit: Dear listeners, a warm welcome to Second Crack, the Leadership Podcast. If you are new to the show, this is where we explore everyday leadership dilemmas and paradoxes, and where we invite you to self-reflect. I am Gerrit Pelzer, I work as an executive coach, and I bring to my coaching a combination of Western science and Asian wisdom.

[01:02] Joining me today, as always, is my dear friend and business partner, Martin Aldergard. Martin specializes in driving change and transformation within organizations. And what we both have in common is that we always put people at the center of our work. So, hi Martin, how are you today?

[01:22] Martin: Hi, Gerrit. I'm fine, thank you. And great to be recording with you again. Today on the topic of assertiveness in leadership. 

[01:33] Gerrit: Right and for this, we have another expert on the show. Our guest today is Rachel Goodwin. She is based in the UK, and Rachel is a leadership coach with a special interest in supporting women in the workplace. However, as Martin has already indicated, we are speaking with her today because she is also a renowned expert on the subject of assertiveness in leadership contexts. So, apart from applying this in her coaching, she also conducts workshops and trainings on assertiveness. And she is also a fellow podcaster. She is the host of the Wordwise Coaching Podcast, in which she explores all the various areas she addresses in her coaching work. So Rachel, also a warm welcome to you, thank you for joining us today.

[02:27] Rachel: Thank you very much. It's great to join you both.

[02:31] Gerrit: And so the question actually came up, why are we talking about assertiveness today? Why is it interesting for leaders? And when Martin and I discussed this, we actually realized we looked at it from different angles. For me, in my coaching, what happens many times, surprisingly often, is I work with a number of leaders who are perceived by others as too soft, not tough enough.

[03:04] And I think that's actually not a problem. It's a strength because these people are high in empathy, and they are very good at the people-side of things. And really, it's surprising to me how many senior leaders still struggle with this. And actually, the first time I met Rachel, I learned that she's also running assertiveness workshops. And I thought, wow, we need to get her on the show. 

[03:34] Martin: And I came from the other direction, where I'm in my work about change and transformation meet a lot of leaders that perhaps go too much on the other side. They trying to drive decisions and change into the organization through being very direct, very powerful, and telling everybody this is the way it's got to be done, just do it. And then they might start to wonder why people are not engaged, why people don't buy into change, why people don't come up with initiatives and contribute to this. And so here we stand with the question, what is assertiveness? And is there a right level of assertiveness, and the balance between perhaps being too strong versus being too weak as a leader?

[04:24] What do you say, Rachel?

[04:26] Rachel: I think it's a fantastic place to start, actually. It's so interesting that you raise those different angles that you're coming from, with the experience you've had with clients. And I think that is the very reason that assertiveness is so helpful because it is applicable for everybody really. And what I find in my coaching work is that often communication is at the center of so much of what I work with. And finding ways to express yourself clearly, and to address situations in a way that you're going to get a good result, you're going to be clear about what you want, you're going to respect that the other person may have different wishes and desires, you're going to listen, will mean that you are more likely to get a positive outcome and that you're not going to damage relationship, you're potentially going to build relationship.

[05:30] So I just think the assertiveness framework is an incredibly helpful tool to help people address the tricky situations, the challenges that leadership inevitably brings. And to have that checkpoint just enables you to plan well and to be clear what you want and to find the right language to express it.

[05:55] Gerrit: Wow, that's, that's already wonderful. I mean, there was just a couple of sentences, but so many important keywords that I picked up. You mentioned already a couple of times being clear or clarity, listening, respect, getting a good result, a positive outcome. And you mentioned the framework and I wonder, you know, I'm German, English is a second language for me, and I'm not sure if there's a good translation actually for "assertiveness" into German language. So how would you define assertiveness? 

[06:28] Rachel: So, my definition would be assertiveness is clear, respectful, constructive communication that is not driven by emotion, although it is likely emotion will be present. And another point I think it's important to make is, I've noticed that the term assertiveness can often be used interchangeably with the term aggressive, and they really are very different.

[06:57] So I think it's important to understand, the differences. And I'd say that assertive communication is appropriate, but powerful. So I think some people can find it frustrating because it can be difficult to, dismiss or ignore assertive communication, but it is respectful and it is taking into account, all of the interests and the needs of the people involved.

[07:25] So, yeah, I just think it's important to be aware of that. And I read articles where, um, there's reference to people being criticized for being too assertive, and I don't particularly like that language because my whole point of view is that assertive is skillful, respectful communication And so, done well, it shouldn't come across as being overpowering or inappropriate. 

[07:54] Martin: That is really interesting, that this is not a synonym for aggressive. So you have these three, we have aggressive, and we have passive on the other side, and then you have assertive as a third option, so to say. Is that the framework?

[08:12] Rachel: Well, it is, but there's one missing in there. So, I often, use a triangle. to depict the framework. And so, at the bottom line of the triangle, you have aggressive on one side, you have passive at the other corner, and in the middle there is passive/aggressive.

[08:30] And then at the top, there is assertive. And so if we think about what those different styles are. Aggressive is really about win or lose and I want to win. So, the thinking is that my needs and wishes are more important than yours and it, it can come across through sort of anger, intimidation, threat, and they're quite strong words, but it can just be, you know, a very steely look where it's very clear that there is anger present.

[09:06] And then passive is more around avoidance of conflict. So, you know, sort of acknowledging that the needs and wishes of the other party are more important than your own. And, and so you're going to allow them to win, you're going to allow their needs and wishes to, be met, and yours not. And this comes across as, as sort of, timid behaviour, wishing to please, and maybe a certain level of anxiety.

[09:33] And then passive aggressive in the middle is the idea that you want to win, but you don't want to look like you want to win. So it's a very confusing way actually of communicating. So, it's my needs and wishes are more important than yours, but I'm going to make it look. like yours are more important than mine. And, and that can be sort of indirect communication. It can be sarcasm. it can be humor. And, and then if questioned around it, you can sort of say, Oh no, that's not what I meant at all. So it's quite, it tends to leave the other person rather confused that there's something going on. They're not quite sure what, and they don't really understand what's being said.

[10:19] And then, obviously, there is assertive, and this is the idea that you're looking for a win-win, so you're respecting both parties needs and wishes, you're being very clear about your own, and you're being very clear about what you want to achieve from the conversation, but you're also very willing to listen, and so it's more of an exploration and a deepening of understanding.

[10:46] And I think that the point is that it doesn't guarantee that you walk away with a perfect compromise and everybody's delighted. but what I often say to people is that you will walk away with a deeper understanding of what the issue is and where you both stand around it. And even if you don't achieve the ultimate goal, you will have that.

[11:13] And you will know that you've addressed something clearly, that you have been respectful, and, and that is a positive in itself, I think.

[11:24] Gerrit: Wow, you know, I'm, I'm blown away. I've never heard such a clear definition of these various styles. And it's also very obvious to me, at least, why then the assertive way, you talked a lot about communication, skillful communication, is the way forward. So if I just quickly recap this, because I think it was a lot in a, in a very, condensed version in a very short amount of time.

[11:53] So you have the clients I described earlier often on the what you call passive side, the word that I often use is pleasing. So they have difficulties in asserting their needs. So I, you know, I don't care so much about myself, but I want to make sure the other person or persons are fine. And maybe while I'm talking about this, I think jumping already to a potential reason why are people doing this. And I think it's because they are concerned about damaging the relationship, or they are concerned about hurting the other person if they are, in their model of the world, too direct. And then on the other extreme, obviously, we have those people who are aggressive. "I want to make sure my needs are met, I don't care about yours."

[12:50] And I also love this middle part about passive-aggressive. I always struggled to explaining people what passive-aggressive is. I think you hit the nail on the head. And, also these indicators, like this weird sense of what they might call humor, sarcasm, uh, maybe also being cynical, are indicators for this, right. And so with all of these three different approaches, you don't get the best result. What you need is the assertive one, where I want to make sure your needs are met, but I have also needs and I want you to respect them. And I also love, and I think that's very important, that still doesn't guarantee a great outcome, but it's the best approach to possibly get, get a good outcome.

[13:43] Martin: I'm wondering now, as a leader, do I adapt to the situation? That means sometime I'm acting more passively sometime I'm acting more aggressively, depending on the situation. Or is it, so to say, more something that is my habit?Almost like I would be born with it.

[14:02] Rachel: That's such an interesting question. And I think that, the important thing to say is that the passive, the passive-aggressive, and the aggressive are natural behaviors, you know, we do all do them, and assertiveness is more of a learnt behavior. So it's a skill that, you know, we often say it's a life's work, really. You're constantly sort of building that skill and building that muscle. And life events, upbringing, your context, et cetera, is definitely going to influence what kind of mode you tend to use. And it's not that you get locked into one necessarily, but you probably have one that you're more likely to go to. So it's, it's sort of deepening and understanding around that. 

[14:52] And also thinking about, are the particular people or particular contexts that tend to bring out that behavior? Because it's often when we're stressed, overwhelmed, tired, that we revert to the sort of maybe our more obvious style of communication. And really, the more that you are aware of that, and what happens to you, and it's often when we're triggered, and that we go into this reactive state, and our body and brain kind of take us there with stress hormones, etc. that we, you know, we, we slip into these patterns of communication. So it's about noticing that.

[15:37] And I think another thing about this model is that it addresses the sort of the logical, the intellectual side of things, the language, the wording, the thinking, but it also acknowledges the emotional side of it. And we're human beings and emotions are so, so important. And I think a lot of the time, people are not necessarily consciously, but there's an awareness that there is emotion there that can feel quite frightening. And so people are trying to suppress that, and they often then will avoid addressing an issue because they're aware that there's something there that they don't quite have control over, and they don't know how it's going to play out. So I think the first thing is to really be aware of that emotion and to, and to process it, because then you can free yourself from that fear of, is this going to explode in an unhelpful way.

[16:34] Martin: I'm, I can hardly sit still when I'm listening to you, Rachel, because I'm remembering back to my work and being in meetings or in even high level meetings. And you can feel the tension in the room because this is this corporate culture that is really aggressive, and people are really frightened to speak up, or they tend to fall into this passive-aggressive kind of communication style towards the boss, or towards each other, because they don't feel safe. And in other corporate cultures, it can be a very stressful meeting, but there is an underlying emotion of trust, of calmness, and people feel they dare to speak up, even if they might not have the right answer, or they're together searching for the correct answers. So you can almost sense it when you walk into a meeting room.

[17:30] Rachel: Absolutely. And I think so many people will identify with that. And, and I think we've, we've probably all witnessed situations where the unskillful side comes out. You know, somebody sort of, "well, I mean, it's not a surprise that the report didn't arrive because your team never deliver anything on time". Rather than, "I think there is an issue here that we probably need to address and I think what's hindering us is that we're not meeting deadlines and that's causing real problems further down the line. So I think it would be interesting if we could discuss that". You know, they're very different.

[18:10] Gerrit: I love so much that you're using this word pair, skillful versus unskillful, I think this is really the essence for me. Interestingly, we use the same pair in Buddhism a lot, so it resonates well with me. If we maybe now move on to the practical side of it, if I as a leader want to be more skillful in my conversations. And maybe I know already I tend to come more from this side or the other, be that the aggressive or the pleasing, the passive side. You have worked with so many people, do you have a set of recommendations, what people can do to find the right level of assertiveness to be skillful in these difficult situations or conversations?

[18:59] Rachel: Yes, I think with assertiveness, really the learning is through the doing, through the practice. And so, understanding the model and understanding the logic of it is important. But it's really about how you start to apply it that you begin to build that muscle. And so, when I work with clients, we always will apply it to something specific in their world. And we'll ask them to bring an issue, a conversation that they may already have had and didn't go terribly well, or one that's coming up, or one that may come up in the future. So that they're thinking about it specifically. And then we obviously encourage them to explore kind of how they're feeling about that. What, what's that bringing up for them. And you actually want them to feel the emotion, you know, feel the, potentially the fear and really get in touch with that. And then we asked them to come up with a core message.

[20:03] Actually even before they do that, it's about setting the intention and the purpose of this conversation. Because I think if you do that, it's almost like setting a sat nav. That if you set a sat nav, you set your purpose, you know where you're trying to get to. And there may be diversions along the way, but you do know what your destination is. So if you set your purpose and you set your intention that you want this to be a win win situation, respectful, skilful communication. and what you want to get out of it. So, for example, if it was somebody who was in your team and they've been given a project and it's not going well, and the key is that you want to be very specific about what you're trying to achieve. That's very important for assertive communication. You don't want a big long shopping list of all the things you're finding frustrating.

[20:54] So you may take things piece by piece, so you come up with something specific and then you formulate a really short, clear, couple of sentences that really encapsulate what you're trying to achieve. So it can be, um, "Bob, you know, I know you were very pleased to get this project. but I do have some concerns about how it's going. It doesn't seem like we're meeting deadlines and my sense is your team are confused. So I'd like to come up with a way that we can make sure that things are on track and that the team are clear about their responsibilities. And I'd like to talk about that today and come up with some clear outcomes". And so it just, putting that together can be a lot of work actually, because it's not necessarily the normal way. And what's so interesting in role plays, and we do role plays in groups often around this, or individually with clients. And there are just patterns of behaviour that are there, and I just see them so often, and they're just not that helpful. So it's often, "Oh, hello, good to have a catch up. How are you?" And, and lots of kind of chit chat. And even in a role play situation, you can feel the tension rising, because both parties know that there's something coming and they're not sure what it is. And, and, and emotions are heightened.

[22:29] And with assertive communication, if you're able to regulate your own emotion, you're actually helping the other person to regulate their emotion as well. So by being very clear at the beginning, still being, there can still be warmth, you know, it's not being abrupt, but it's just being clear. And that takes a lot of practice for people. So we, we give it a try, then we stop and we talk about it, then we do it again and again. Um, and often I see the look of dread in a client's face when I say, shall we do that again?

[23:03] Gerrit: Oh, I'd love to

[23:06] Rachel: Exactly. And also we, we often will film it. We'll get them to use their phone to film it because then you're picking up all of the body language, which is so important with all of this, the kind of, you know, looking up at the ceiling, fidgety hands, you know, crossing and uncrossing legs, all of those little ticks, and they all contribute towards a mixed message sometimes. So giving a difficult message with a beaming smile on your face, you know, there's a lack of congruence there.

[23:36] Gerrit: I'll pick up the beaming smile. If this was with video, the listeners would, or the, the viewers would see me smiling all the time because I can so vividly imagining these role plays, and maybe I start commenting on these. Because I think what they show is, how deeply we are stuck in our old habits and patterns, no matter how unproductive they are. And it's so hard to overcome them, and this is why I hate this oversimplified how to advice: "five steps to be more assertive". And then you look at these and from tomorrow onwards I'll be able to implement this. And what we see here is also, I mean, role plays, I mean, we hated them already as children maybe, but I also have experience when you do this with senior leaders. Role play, right? What's that? But really they are so real, and people experience the emotions. So I think that's, that's really fantastic. 

[24:43] And then I wanted to briefly go back to where you started. It starts actually with setting the intention and a purpose. And this example that you gave with, I think it was Bob and the project, it's also very clear is the intention of helping. The intention of giving people an opportunity to improve. Not the intention, let me prove to Bob what kind of idiot he is.

[25:10] Rachel: Exactly. And I think in that situation, you know, what could be going on is that the person, Bob's boss could be thinking, "Oh, why did I give him this opportunity?", you know, that "I've, I've made a mistake here". So there could well be a lot of anxiety there that could play out. Whereas what needs to happen is for that anxiety or whatever it is to be processed so that the intent can be positive. And it doesn't mean that he's, they're going to support Bob to, you know, forever. Bob has to be aware that there is an issue for anything to change. That's the first step.

[25:48] Martin: I'm, I'm thinking as a leader, if I'm more on the overly aggressive side, and I'm, when I'm seeing Bob not performing, and I swing open the door, crash into the meeting room and saying, "Bob, you got to shape up, this can't continue". And, and in the back of my mind, I'm just thinking, when am I going to fire him? How can we help a leader like this with self awareness? Because I would assume that he or she is not really aware of the, the potential limitations of the behavior.

[26:24] Rachel: I think that's such a helpful question, actually, because one of the key points of preparation, around assertive communication is really trying to consider where the other person is coming from. So if you just take a few moments. And to think, do I think Bob is really lazy and incompetent? And that's probably unlikely because why did you give him the responsibility? Is it that Bob is unsure and doesn't want to, give the impression that he's not capable? Is it that he's overwhelmed? Is it that there is a significant problem in the team that needs resolving? Have I not been clear about what my expectations are? So really giving some thought to what could be going on is a very helpful step to enable somebody who can behave in the way that you described, to come with a more measured approach where they are going to be curious, and to really want to hear.

[27:25] And it doesn't mean that they're not going to give a very clear message and potentially a very tough message. But they're going to do it in a way that is more likely to get results. Because for example, if Bob is unsure and uncertain, having someone come in and yell at him that he's got to shape up is probably not going to resolve that situation.

[27:48] And just one other point that's come to mind is that I've often worked with quite a few leaders who have had feedback to say that they are too direct and they are verging on aggressive. And what can happen there is, that they are so concerned about that happening again, that they stop giving clear messages completely. So they revert completely the other way. And then maybe now and again, there's an explosion. But I can think of so many leaders who will sometimes use the language of, I can't say that. Or, you know, because they're so aware that there can be criticism. And so giving them a framework that makes sense to them and that they can say, okay, there is a way that I can be clear appropriately, is, is a huge help for them.

[28:43] Gerrit: Martin, I'm also grateful you brought up this question because obviously if I want to find the right level of assertiveness, I need to know in the first place, from which side am I approaching it? And if I now, coming back to the original question, how can I achieve just that? So listening to you, Rachel and Martin, I would say there are three key areas.

[29:07] There is so to say the cognitive and intellectual aspect to it, which relates into how, right, what, what am I going to do. There is the emotional part. And then there is the practice part. So, if I could start perhaps with the cognitive part, what would be your, your, I don't know what, five simple steps to be more assertive on the cognitive level, so to say?

[29:38] Rachel: I think it's about really giving some thought to what you actually want to get across and, and spending time on that core message and thinking about the language that you're using, so really crafting that. And then I also encourage people to practice in front of a mirror so that they can, they can get used to hearing themselves, hearing that assertive voice, and seeing the body language that goes with it. Sort of really making sure that you're working on that and you're thinking about what's the problem, what's the impact of that problem, and what request do I want to make to make that better. So really spending that time making sure that you set up a time to speak to the person that is going to be appropriate, so not before they're, they're going to be, you know, kind of addressing the board or something like that.

[30:34] And setting aside a private space, so that you have the time, because there's nothing worse than saying there's a big problem I've got a meeting in five minutes, but, you know, so, so you've got to allow the time because that's respectful as well, it's kind of like, let's create the space for this to be, um, positive. Thinking about their perspective, you know, considering what that might be. Listening, and then also, repeating back what you're hearing so that you, there's real clarity around what's going on. So, so that you're not making assumptions. So you hear something and you say, "so what I hear is that you think the team is, is understaffed. So you're in the weeds with them trying to get this work done and you're not taking that strategic view. Would you say that's, that's the situation?" So that you've got real clarity.

[31:30] And and then also I think the really important thing is that often these conversations, this style of communication, it's not going to resolve something instantly. So it's very much about reflecting where you've got to, and then setting the next step for, can I say that, you know, you're going to check that data or we're going to reflect on this, and then next week we'll get together and we'll pick up again to see, you know, what's changed or what your thoughts are or how things are going. Because often there's been a sense of anticipation about having this conversation, And then you do all the preparation and you have the conversation and the temptation is to think, Oh, done. Oh, I'm so pleased I've tackled that. And then the outcome doesn't really stick. So it's far better to make it a process, rather than a one off event. So that's, that's kind of the practical side of it. and then there's the emotional side of it, which is a deeper kind of process.

[32:36] Gerrit: maybe because, because I think the emotional side is such a large subject. Again, maybe if I can just recap. So as you said earlier, it's about starting with setting your own intention, and being absolutely clear what your core message will be. Being also clear what, what words, what language you will use. Martin and I had actually discussed it: it may be very different in different cultural contexts, in different countries eventually. And setting enough time aside for it, planning it for the right time. Prepare yourself that after one discussion, the whole thing will not be necessarily resolved.

[33:17] And I think there was maybe one item which you mentioned, but I think is worth highlighting one more time. It was about the perspective of the other person. So before you go into this meeting, also thinking about what might, what might Martin or Bob think about this, say about this. Are they aware that there is a problem, if it's a problem for me, right. But also anticipating maybe how might they react to it, which then again links back to the wording, the language I'm going to use. so that would be my quick recap. I don't know if Martin or Rachel, you want to add anything else before we go to the big topic of the emotions.

[34:00] Rachel: No, I think, I think you've really captured it there. Yeah.

[34:04] Gerrit: So yeah, I mean, I'm a great fan of exploring emotions, because I have learned as a former natural scientist that the emotions are actually, in my definition, nothing but neurological, neurobiological processes in the brain, which impact all our behaviors and decision making. So you mentioned already a number of interesting aspects around this. So coming back to preparing for this skillful conversation, preparing for a particular conversation, but also in terms of the long term development, what's your experience and what do you recommend to deal with the difficult emotional side of assertiveness?

[34:54] Rachel: Um, yes, I think, again, one of the benefits of the assertiveness model is that it can open up very rich conversations. Because once one starts to talk to a client about, you know, what do you think is getting in the way and, and how are you feeling about it, and actually getting them to define the emotion, so they may say they're angry. But if you dig a bit deeper, it might be that they can be quite upset, or they can be very anxious. So really trying to get them in touch with what the actual emotion is. And if there's a pattern of that emotion, can be very, very helpful because, you know, I do think a lot of the time, especially, you know, when people work at such a pace these days, that we don't spend an awful lot of time stopping and reflecting and thinking, where is this coming from?

[35:51] So we're triggered, emotions, you know, are kind of in full flow and then we tend to start thinking in rather a black and white way. We tend to make an assumption and think, right, you know, this behavior is out to get in my way, this is, you know, designed to annoy me. When in all likelihood that it's going to be a lot more complex than that. So, if you can really get people to get in touch with the emotion, to, to, to almost feel the physical sensation that that emotion is, evoking for them and then have conversations around, where's that coming from, is this a pattern of behavior, what are the other factors that could be at play here, what about the emotion of the other person, what about the broader context, you know, is the organization in huge pressure at the moment? And so building a fuller, more vivid picture of what is going on, and allowing them to have the right to feel the emotions about things. And also to get in touch with, it is appropriate for me to say no to things, or it is appropriate for me to make it clear that I have ultimate responsibility for this, and I have to make sure that that happens. And that that's not being mean or unkind. It's about, engaging with the task and making sure that it's staying on track. So getting people to really believe that this is, there is a route through this, there is a possible positive outcome and that they have the right to raise that. But they also have the responsibility to listen to the other person. And that really is, you know, a lot of work. The more you do it, the faster you get at being able to recognize all of this. But it makes for incredibly helpful conversations that have long lasting impact beyond one difficult conversation. And it's often work that, you know, If I start working on this model with clients, it's something that will go right through the coaching program, that it'll keep coming up. So it's incredibly important. And in the programs that I run where I use assertiveness, it is sort of a bedrock that we keep returning to.

[38:17] Gerrit: Beautiful. And I think my main takeaway from this is: It's a longer term development. It's not just like, oh, I go tomorrow in this difficult conversation and I just make an extra effort to remain calm. Because we are often really in the grip of our emotions. And I don't know why this just comes to mind. You sometimes see this funny home videos where somebody walks into a room, hits the table with his leg, and the immediate reaction is to kick the table. So, you know, it's not resolving the situation, it's maybe makes it more painful and you have to buy another table. But, but this is often what happens, right, we are in this conversation and it is "how could I, why have I done this?", and this deep regret. So it takes time. But I think you also mentioned at some point in time to find ways of buying yourself time to regulate your emotions. What are your suggestions for that?

[39:20] Rachel: Yes, I think this is crucially important because when we, if we can get in touch with what happens in our body when we're triggered, for me, my stomach flips. And so before anything logical happens, I get that physical sensation and I, I think, Oh, right, here we go, you know, I, I'm not at my most centred state. So, what we practice is just a moment of grounding, really, of just really trying to get yourself back into a state to tell your body that it's not under attack. So we don't have to go into fight or flight mode. And the way that I do that is just by saying to clients, I mean, It's far easier to do this if you practice it on a regular basis, because your body recognizes what you're trying to tell it. But, the first steps are just feet on the floor, just getting that sense of, you know, kind of grounding and connectedness. Feet on the floor, bottom on the chair. "Fof Bok", a mindfulness teacher years ago taught me that, but it's incredibly powerful in just a few seconds, feet on the floor, bottom on the chair, and then really just connecting with your breath, and taking a couple of breaths, ideally quite sort of deep breaths where your stomach is, you're really feeling that expansion. And then you are activating your parasympathetic nervous system. So you're calming down those stress hormones and then you're enabling your brain to really kick in, not be overwhelmed by the emotional response. And you can then come to this with, in a way that is going, your emotions are regulated and you're helping regulate the emotion of the other person that's involved or people that are involved.

[41:03] But as I say, It is far easier to do that if your body is used to it. So if you have some sort of, a breathing or a meditation practice, but it is amazing what a difference that makes. And we do that through the role play. Every time the person starts again, we do this kind of just take that breath and you can see sort of just physical shoulders drop. Maybe, you know, the jaw isn't quite so tense. So all of those signs that people aren't consciously aware of, but it all adds up to a far more measured approach.

[41:41] Gerrit: Yeah, and perhaps also again coming back to setting the intention, sort of developing a strategy, right. First of all, developing this ability to say like, okay, if my reaction with this person is often, let's say anger, I see it often manifests somewhere in the stomach area and then goes up through my chest and ends up in my neck tightening up, right, that I develop my awareness to intervene as soon as possible. And then this strategy: okay, the moment I sense this, I will take at least one deeper breath, if possible, three, and this will help. But again, just doing it once will not help. Like you said, maybe if we have something like a regular meditation practice to, I don't know how to describe this, but to bring down my, my baseload, if that makes any kind of sense.

[42:36] And then also acknowledging, as you said earlier, the circumstances. So I might not want to have this discussion when I know I'm tired already. And also acknowledging that it is a process. So I work often with people who are very senior in the organization, very experienced in life. And they often think like, you know, I'm so smart, if I understand the problem intellectually, then through willpower alone, I'll be able to deal with it. And then sometimes because the emotions are so strong and the stronger we are triggered, the more likely we are to fall back into the old habit. These people are then immensely disappointed if they have made some progress and then suddenly fall back and it's, it's just part of it.

[43:27] Martin: It's really interesting to listening now. I think we're getting to towards the end of our conversation, but what I bring with me now is this very simple idea that this leadership skill of assertiveness, I need to combine both the intellectual, and also the emotions. So, it's really the most difficult parts of leadership that I need to combine in one.And there's so much depth into this, so we could go on for a long time. I would recommend that we actually getting into our reflection questions. 

[44:05] Gerrit: Yeah, because Rachel said reflection is so important.

[44:10] Martin: Yes.

[44:11] Gerrit: Who would like to make a start? 

[44:14] Martin: I can start, Gerrit. I have one reflection question, and this is based on self awareness. I think we talk about this in many episodes, Gerrit, and I always talk about this "stop and pause". So like, like Rachel also said here, practice stopping and pausing to sense what am I thinking, what am I feeling before I respond, either in a difficult conversation or in a team meeting, or before an important meeting, so that I really have access to my skills of being assertive. So I, this was a statement, but I tried to put a question mark after it.

[45:00] Gerrit: Yeah, I also perhaps struggle with formulating it as a question right away, but as a big fan of the emotions, I would like to start with that. And I think maybe in the context of exploring, stopping and reflecting, identifying what is typically getting into my way of finding the right level of assertiveness? Could it be perhaps anger? Could it be fear of something? And then also exploring where is that actually coming from? And then perhaps with Rachel's help, identifying a strategy how to deal with these so that I can have more, skillful, difficult conversations in the future. Rachel, would you like to add a reflection question?

[45:55] Rachel: As you say, it's tricky to, to form it in a question, but I'm going to try. I think I would encourage people to think, how could I start to engage with this model? We often say try and find situations that are quite low stakes maybe. So not waiting for the most high level meeting that you're going to be attending, but sometimes outside work, finding an opportunity to experiment and don't judge yourself harshly. Just be curious and interested to explore this because if you take a gentle approach and you work with it over time, you will really see the difference it makes and you will be encouraged to continue. Simple in many ways, but very complex really in practice. And so it does take time to master.

[46:54] And I would also encourage people to get support, to talk to other people, to get other perspectives, not to rush things, to go slowly, to prepare properly, and then you will build this skill and it will be incredibly valuable for you.

[47:09] Gerrit: Nice, what, what a perfect wrap up, Rachel. Now, if people are listening and say, wow, this is really interesting. I either want Rachel as my coach, or I want to learn more about assertiveness, participate in one of her workshops. How can people reach out to you?

[47:28] Rachel: Well, you can find me on LinkedIn, Rachel Goodwin. And, yeah, you can find me there. My website is rachelgoodwin.uk. And I do offer assertiveness workshops and there is a wait list available on the website. So always happy to encourage people to, to visit that. And, you know, if you're interested, I'm always happy to speak to people. So please do get in touch. And, I love talking about this and I love helping people around this. So always happy to hear from people.

[48:02] Gerrit: Excellent. And we'll make sure we put a link to your website and your podcast in the session notes. Rachel, thank you so much, it was a great pleasure and honor having you on the show today.

[48:13] Rachel: I've absolutely loved the conversation, I love talking about this and to hear your perspectives in the different angles, it's always so interesting.

[48:22] Gerrit: Most welcome, and Martin, as always, thank you to you too.

[48:27] Martin: Thank you, Gerrit. Thank you, Rachel.

[48:29] Gerrit: And this concludes today's episode. If you like what we do, please subscribe to Second Crack on your favourite podcast platform. It would also be wonderful if you could recommend our podcast to a friend. And of course we would love it if you could leave a positive comment or rating. For more insights about our work, visit our website at secondcrackleadership.com, that's all in one word. And we are also curious to receive your feedback, your questions, your comments. Feel free to reach out to us at hello at secondcrackleadership.com. 
Bye for now.