Second Crack – The Leadership Podcast (Episode 36)
This transcript is AI-generated and may contain typos and errors.
[00:00] Martin: This is this interesting contradiction between process and outcome, process and results. And I think it's like such a taboo to saying, that results is not everything. I think we need to open up to question and can we start work together without knowing exactly what we are going to get out of it? I think it's very difficult because most of our corporate work is driven around ROI and being able to prove that this will pay off. It's a discomfort to work, not knowing exactly what will be the outcome, and this is why we don't have this conversation enough in, in teams.
[00:57] Gerrit: Dear listeners, a warm welcome to a brand new episode of Second Crack, The Leadership Podcast. If you are new to the show, this is where we explore everyday leadership dilemmas and paradoxes and where we invite you to self reflect. I am Gerrit Pelzer. I work as an executive coach and I bring to my coaching a combination of Western science and Asian wisdom. Joining me today, as always, is my dear friend and business partner, Martin Aldergard. Martin specializes in driving change and transformation within organizations. And what we both have in common is that we always put people at the center of our work. Hi, Martin. It's good to be recording with you today again.
How are you?
[01:45] Martin: I'm fine, Gerrit. Thank you very much. And it's especially nice to be recording when both of us are in Europe. So I would also say happy summer to you.
[01:55] Gerrit: Yeah, that's a first for us, actually.
[01:58] Martin: Yeah, actually it is. And today we're going to have a conversation about a really interesting dilemma. Can we be content, can I be happy with what I have,versus giving up on the aspirations, the ambitions, driving the results that I want to achieve. I think this is a great tension today when the corporate world is changing faster and there are so many challenges to address in the world, and results orientation and pushing forward seems to be what is expected from everyone.
[02:36] Gerrit: Yeah, and I think on a personal level, if you can manage this balance of being content without giving up on your aspirations, I think that's a recipe for true happiness. And I'm still working on this. And why we are discussing this today is that I had actually two encounters that triggered this episode today.
One was I was recently in a meeting where pretty much everyone mentioned that they had too much work, they were both physically and mentally exhausted, and a couple of people were now looking forward to their upcoming vacations. And I immediately thought to myself, you know, will this vacation be enough? And what will happen when you come back from, say, one or two weeks vacation, how quickly will you be back on your hamster wheel? And then I thought, shouldn't it be possible to arrange your everyday work in a way that You don't get exhausted like this and that you don't actually come to the point where you need a vacation. You can still go on vacation, but you don't feel you really need it to be able to recover.
[03:51] Martin: Hmm, this is really interesting, and you mentioned the word hamster wheel, and as a contrast, I'm thinking of this saying, if you work with what you love, it doesn't feel like work, And I'm linking this with the purpose, why do I feel stressed?
Why do I feel burned out? Perhaps because I don't see the connection to a strong purpose. The importance of why am I doing this, why is this important to me, how is this important to me?
[04:24] Gerrit: Yeah. I think for me, there are two sides to that coin. One is, of course, if I have a job that is just a job, then I think this feeling of exhaustion, I'm doing something that's not meaningful every day. I just do it to, earn the money and that's it. I think then you are at a much higher risk of burnout.
But at the same time, I think I knew what you said, slightly different. Do what you love and you never work a day in your life,
[04:58] Martin: Hmm, yes,
[05:00] Gerrit: And, and I disagree to this. I can certainly say I do what I love and there are times where I have to work.
[05:10] Martin: Hmm,
[05:10] Gerrit: And what I would agree with is certainly that when I have a purpose, when I enjoy my work, when I have experiences at work that I find are deeply fulfilling, for instance, when a client of mine makes significant progress, that is very rewarding.
And when my work is aligned with my purpose or my inner compass, right, then of course I'm, nobody else has to motivate me. I do what I do and I enjoy it. But at the same time, there are many people, for instance, in helping professions or those who are Let's say, for instance, peace activists, climate activists who feel this strong purpose, but it's also like it's never enough.
There are perhaps so many people in need and 24 hours a day are not enough to help them. When I look at climate change, people who are deeply involved as an activist say, we have no time. We have to turn the wheel around now.
[06:16] Martin: hmm,
[06:17] Gerrit: And these people can also be immensely stressed. So that's what I meant with these two different perspectives.
So bottom line, purpose helps, certainly, but it does not guarantee it prevents you from burnout.
[06:33] Martin: And I think this perspective also applies on many executives. Many leaders are strongly self motivated and have a very strong sense of purpose and can actually really quickly be consumed by the work and by the challenges that are actually really motivating to them. So where do we draw the line? And if you're feeling overwhelmed, Is it acceptable then to say, you know, might I lower my aim? Might I lower my ambition to find a life where I'm more happy, where I'm more content with what I already have? Or does that go against everything that we learn in the corporate world, for instance, about results orientation? We should always improve, we should optimize, we need to be productive. There's always places to find new opportunities to grow and grow and grow.
Hmm,
[07:37] Gerrit: What you said reminds me also of this goal discussion. And you said something highly interesting. You said like, Should I lower my aim? And I think that is where perhaps the whole dilemma lies, or where we might then find also the answer. So as you said so nicely, in the corporate world, we are very results, very goal oriented. And I think everybody in the corporate world has by now been to many workshops where it's all about Setting S.M.A.R.T goals. I would question if we always really need S.M.A.R.T goals. I think S.M.A.R.T goals make sense only in certain contexts. And if we have the right goals. And what I like to distinguish is between the goals and the direction, which comes then back to, how can I be content without, I would then not say lowering my aim, but without giving up on my aspirations. And the aspiration is for me closely related to the direction I want to take in life. What are my values? What matters to me? And then if I have this clarity about what is important to me, then actually when everything, or at least most of what I do during the day, If this is aligned with this direction, I will eventually arrive somewhere.
More importantly, while I am pursuing this, or while I am on this track, I can enjoy life very much without becoming overly attached to a very specific outcome, which in my experience, with lots and lots of coaching sessions where This drive for very specific results is immensely frustrating for people, because of many reasons.
One being, while they are running after a certain goal, they are not very happy. And then sometimes when they achieve it, Either they realize that still doesn't make me happy, or as the example you gave from the corporate world, which is very common procedure nowadays, is we achieve one goal, then we take a minute to celebrate it, and then we need to rush on to the next.
[09:58] Martin: There is very little time spent among leaders, among managers and corporations to actually bring up this conversation because it's, uh, it's not really acceptable, I think, to question the assumption about the drive, the results. And, I mean, not being naive, there is a lot of competition in the world, so it seems like if we don't push and if we don't take this market share, our competitors will take that. And where will it then end? We better keep on pushing. And I had a consulting mentor, he always talked about setting very high targets. And he said, the thing with setting ambitious goals is not so much about the height of the target. It's more about the question, how long time it will take to reach it. So there were two things inside there. One is, of course, that if you set ambitious goals. You need to accept that we need to work on it step by step. We are entering uncharted territory. We are going to make mistakes and a lot of things that we don't know when we start the journey is what we're going to learn until we reach that target ultimately.
But the second thing that I also want to point out in the end with very ambitious goals, as you also said, it's equally about the journey, learning and developing and actually, on a personal level, enjoying the journey.
I would somehow, I sense in myself listening to you, There are, of course, aspects that I agree to, and at the same time I sense some discomfort, maybe because I experienced too many times that organizations, as well as individuals, set targets that are not useful. maybe we can start with a useful target.
[12:07] Gerrit: I'm coming back to climate change. Everything I've read from scientists, I think this 1. 5 degree target that we need to achieve is like carved in stone. So that is a target we must achieve because otherwise we cross certain tipping points and it will be a disaster for us humans. So this is for me clearly an example where a S.M.A.R.T target or goal makes sense.
But then many times in the corporate world, I just experienced goal setting processes where people try to set up a certain budget, certain numbers we need to achieve. And actually in two ways. One is they're trying to make it overly scientific. They collect all the data and then try to estimate where they should end up in a year, but they never have all the factors.
So typically after three months, they need to change their equation or, perhaps even worse, we look at last year and then somebody says, yeah, next year should be 10 percent more profit or, or turnover or whatever it is. Another one says, well, it should be 20%, but there's no real basis. And then what we see is a number of negative aspects,
So for instance, let's say the growth target is 10 percent and people benefit in their personal incentives from that. As soon as they then have achieved the 10%, They start delaying, um, deals to the next year. So I think we need to be really, really careful with how we set targets. We need to be clear when does a specific target, a S.M.A.R.T target or goal makes sense and when doesn't it?
[13:58] Martin: Hmm Hmm. And you, had a second example that I think had to do with visioning.
[14:04] Gerrit: It was another encounter I had. I joined a team meeting And the purpose of that meeting on that day was to create a vision for that team. I think in general, once again, there isn't necessarily inherently wrong with a vision. I just recently read once again, this very powerful vision that Martin Luther King had. I have a dream, right? And we all know the story. And I think such visions are fantastic. If there is a status quo, that is not acceptable and we need to do something about it. And then it's the leader's role to create a vision that everybody wants to achieve. And the vision statement like the speech of Martin Luther King, it really engages people's hearts.
But once again, I'm not sure if we always need a vision. So for instance, in that case, I was in this meeting, and it was very much focused on that the meeting should end with a very specific vision statement. And in this process, what kind of hit me was, wait a moment, this vision seems to imply that what we're doing right now is not good enough. It needs to change. And in whatever the timeframe is, we need to arrive somewhere else. Whereas me personally, I was thinking, what this team is right now doing is already perfect. And wouldn't it be much more useful to think about more of the purpose. So, and because maybe it was so closely, timely related to the other encounter I had, where everybody was stressed out, I felt this strong rejection that, Oh, you know, when you come up with this vision, it sounds like now it's not good enough.
And this comes back exactly to what I meant with how to be content without giving up on your aspirations. We can, I think we can take in such situations, we can acknowledge, Hey. What we're doing right now is great. And that doesn't mean that we're giving up on doing something that is even better. But I once again in my coaching encounter so many people who are unhappy at work because they feel like I'm never allowed to be happy. Because it's never enough. And there is this mantra of, "I will be happy when", and this "when" is sometime in the future, but it's never now. And one, statement resonates so strongly with me that is from my favorite Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh. He says, too many people are so occupied with the past and they have regrets of the past.
The past. But we can't change the past. The past is already gone. And many other people are so worried about the future. They may be anxious about the future. Or like the example we gave about the corporate leaders, they live in the future, right? But the reality is the past is past. The future is not here yet. The only moment we have is now. And then he adds so nicely, And it is a wonderful moment because actually for most of us, they are probably in this specific moment while we're talking, while you as our listener are listening, you probably have already a lot of conditions that allow you to be happy here and now.
[17:53] Martin: There are so many different good perspectives in what you said. And, I'm thinking about two things. Um, I think it, it is not either or it's both and. For instance, I think an organization, any organization benefits greatly from having a vision because having a joint goal, having a joint direction that everybody understands and collaborates working towards. I think this is a very important tool for us as a leader. But then the question is, what does the vision contain? As you rightly say, that how to set the vision and what it contains is really, really important. And we can see the the frustration it might generate when somebody does not agree with what's inside the vision or does not, or feel excluded from the process, right, through the frustration.
And of course, the other thing I, I hear is, your example about the past, present, and the future. This comes to play when we are always pushing results, we're aiming for something in the distance.
And we're, more unhappy about that we are not there yet, than what we have actually ,achieved and what we actually having right now. And, and it becomes like a tunnel vision,
we're missing everything on the road.
Like I said before, like this high level, long term goal, the high mountain perhaps that we have to climb as a metaphor. We are missing the beautiful views from halfway, only thinking about how it will feel when we come to the top. And when we come to the top, we are so tired, we can't enjoy it anyway. Mmm,
[19:47] Gerrit: a real life example, maybe not directly related to corporate leadership, but I just relocated back to Germany, in fact to the house where I grew up in. And it's been aging a bit and the house and the garden needs some maintenance and I have a vision how everything should look like.
And I would actually love to achieve this vision overnight. And then I realized how right after my relocation, this caused me a lot of stress because the to do list was very, very long. And it was impossible to achieve it in just a few days. And over time, I came to terms with it and realized exactly what you just said.
Yeah. I still want to improve the current situation, but also need to acknowledge number one, that it needs time and that the faster I want to achieve it, the more stress it will cause. And I will eventually also overlook all the things that are already really amazing that I can be grateful for. I might miss those along the process.
[20:59] Martin: I think one very important aspect to consider is actually as an organization or as a team, how do we define success? Like, like you spoke about in the beginning here about setting S.M.A.R.T goals, setting visions and, and, and having high aspirations. And I think, as I mentioned already, I think having a clear vision is a great tool to communicate, to align, to, to support collaboration. But like you also said, it's so much about how do we formulate that vision and how do we communicate so that everybody sees the vision in the same way?
If the vision is very specific on a certain outcome and a very narrow minded outcome, then it all gets about chasing numbers and we see where that might lead. If people in the organization just chasing numbers, shortcuts are made. It leads to safety issues, it leads to quality issues, it leads to service problems. Versus when we have a vision that guides the organization towards a direction and along the journey we can also learn, we can enjoy, we can build on what is emerging. the vision got to allow that.
Another thing to consider here is, is as a leader, the time we spend and the focus we spend between being in the future and being in the present. I, you said that, and I agree with you, the past is the past, the future hasn't arrived yet, the only moment is the present moment. Yes, I agree. I believe strongly in that. However, also a role of a leader, especially corporate leaders, is also to imagine the future, create a vision, and then inspire and motivate the rest of the organization to move in that direction, So as a leader, we need to spend time in the future, and then help to bring that future, those possibilities to be understandable in the organization, so the rest of the organization can, can work towards that. But at the same time, now we know that as a leader, I also need to be in the present because that is where my team working right now, that is what's happening right now, that's what people feeling right now, that's what our customers' saying right now. If I'm too much in the future, that's going to drive this sense of chasing, chasing numbers, chasing the future rather than being here right now, appreciating the work that's being done, being grateful for everything that works well, addressing what's not working well, but seeing the positive in what's working well.
So I think the thing to do here is as a leader to think both about the future and being in the future, but also a lot more in the present.
[24:08] Gerrit: Yes.
present moment, seeing that there are so many conditions that allow me to be happy right now, it doesn't mean that I become lazy and that I just lie all day on the sofa and say, Oh, look, you know, everything is wonderful around me. I'm not doing anything. I totally don't mean that. Uh, it's just to make sure that exactly as you said, I do both. I can acknowledge what is good already. I can develop a deep sense of gratitude and then still aspire to improve what is not good enough, while at the same time eventually also accepting what I can't change. I think that is another key element to happiness. And while I was listening to you, I also think like, yeah, of course, the leader's job is, um, I think also to monitor what's going on around us to anticipate the future and how do I, as the leader of the organization or we as the organization, how do we respond to this or how do we actually even shape it?
But I feel then also strongly reminded of the last episode we have with Enrico about resilience. I think the leader's job is also to make sure that neither he or she, him herself, gets exhausted along this pursuit and also the people they work with. Because I think burnout is a huge problem in organization. We see a lot of lack of employee engagement because there is too much stress. So this is also an aspect of leadership. How can we provide an environment where we, I use your term before, where we achieve goals, but we do that in a healthy manner.
[26:13] Martin: I totally agree with you. And to build on this, you mentioned accepting what we cannot control. I think in the, in the corporate setting, a lot of stress is coming from trying to control and worrying about things that are uncertain. We are making plans and we're making forecasts and it creates a lot of worrying, what will happen if? And how about this? How about that? Rather, if we can accept that we work in an uncertain environment, especially as leaders, we're doing a lot of innovation. We are at the part of the business with the most complex questions, with the most unknown factors where there are least answers, that is where we work typically as leaders. But in that environment, how can we let go of control and lead in a way that we can handle uncertainty as a natural part of the process. Which means also we cannot build our sense of success, our sense of achievement based on certain results, because those results are out of our control. We need to build our sense of fulfillment, our sense of achievement more on the process. Do we involve people, do we handle the process correct, do we develop, do we learn together? And then when we do all those things, good results will come. I'm sure. It might not be, it might not be exactly the same results that we envisioned at the start of the journey. It might be better,
[27:53] Gerrit: Would that be related to, I think you shared once with me an article, we don't always need a result. Would that go in a similar direction? Yeah.
[28:06] Martin: and very good and, and the lovely statement. We don't always need an outcome. How I interpret this is actually, we can go into a meeting, for instance, on a very micro level and saying, you know, let's get there here, this team of people, let's discuss X, Y, and Z. and see what we get out of it. Not having like in your example around the vision, starting a meeting saying the, the aim of this meeting is to create a vision And then everybody's trying to squeeze that out. So I think this is this interesting contradiction between process and outcome, process and results.
And I think it's like such a taboo to saying, you know, that results is not everything. I think we need to open up to question and can we start work together without knowing exactly what we are going to get out of it? I think it's very difficult because most of our corporate work is driven around ROI and being able to prove that this will pay off. And I think this is a a discomfort to work, not knowing exactly what will be the outcome. And I think this is why we don't have this conversation enough in, in teams.
[29:36] Gerrit: is also related to what we discussed in the past, this dealing with uncertainty. We are creating, especially again in the corporate world, an environment where we create the illusion that we can control outcomes, but the reality is we can't. I'm quoting Paul Lawrence, our former guests who said, we can't control outcomes, we can only influence. And I think that is another aspect of contentment and happiness, if you wish, that we are able to deal with this uncertainty, to be able to deal with not knowing, and yeah, still be able to enjoy what we're doing.
[30:24] Martin: Yes, again, like, like a workshop facilitator, we always say, trust the process. We can enjoy what we're doing. We can enjoy the process because we know something good is coming out of it. We don't need to force the results out.
[30:42] Gerrit: And I think this is then also With this attitude, we typically get better results. I know this from my coaching work. The more obsessed I get with the idea that my, my coaching clients need a great outcome of every session, the The more I tense up, my client will also feel this tension. Eventually, we are both getting tense, and we're not going anywhere.
Whereas when I focus on the being rather than the doing, and this means in my coaching, to really be in the present moment for my client, and I can detach myself from a very specific outcome and let things evolve. These are typically then the best sessions I have.
[31:31] Martin: I'm thinking now, if we going to look back at our conversation so far and where we started with a dilemma of, uh, Can I be happy, can I be more content with the present, while still having aspirations for where I want to be, rather than just pushing results, pushing results and probably being quite unhappy and really badly needing a vacation.
And for yeah. the learning point so far is yeah.
I see different in being content, being happy and trusting my work process, the skills I put in, the team I build, the culture I build, the trust I build, the relations. That is where I need to put my effort. If the results not come immediately, I can still be content with my process. I can be happy with my process. And, feeling, you know, it will come out okay, I might not know exactly when or how, but I can feel happy because I trust it and I don't need to worry about it. That is how I'm thinking about it after our conversation.
[33:00] Gerrit: Yes, and I think it comes back to, on the individual level also to just remind yourself, I mean, another practical example, we are recording this episode on a Monday and this Monday morning I woke up and I know there's a lot of things also on my to do list for this week. And once again, I wish to do them all very quickly. But then this can lead again to this, getting lost in the, in the rush. And it needs this constant reminder. We spoke a lot of time about mindfulness and mindfulness to me is as basic as just being in the present moment. And we nowadays, I think neuroscientists agree that multitasking is not possible. And if I'm now on one particular task, it usually does not help to even think about the next task. So if I can remain focused on what I'm doing now, it takes as long as it takes. The quality of my work will be better the more focused I am on this task. And then once this is done, I can take that off and then I move on to the next one. But then trying to accelerate things by having many windows open at the same time, doing things in parallel. In my experience, that only leads to a lower quality of work, but not to more quantity of work.
[34:29] Martin: Gerrit, can I ask, many of us don't have the freedom to decide completely over our own work environment, the pace of work, when we are, especially when we are leaders in a multinational organization, a bigger organization. We are part of that and we need to respond, we get goals, we get resources, the pacing is set. So, um, how do you view the role then of more senior executives to build a culture that allows people to be happy while working?
[35:08] Gerrit: Yeah, that is a wonderful topic and I feel reminded of, a couple of guests we had on the show when we spoke about systems, right? And I remember, Tho Ha Vinh, for instance, um, and, in fact, so it's, it's so easy to complain about the system and to say there's nothing we can do. But.
We are not only all part of the system, we create these systems. And especially in, if you are in a leadership role, you said before, we may not all have the freedom, but I think especially when you're in the leadership role, you need to make a decision. Do I want to continue the system as it is, or do I really want to make a change?
[36:03] Martin: One of the most immediate things that stands out for me from this conversation, the change I could do as a leader is actually to help, first of all, myself be grateful for the things that work and recognizing that. The sources and situations of happiness and fulfillment at work that I actually have every day, rather than chasing everything that doesn't work. And of course, then also at the same time, helping my own team feel more happy by supporting them to see the things that they do well and they feel happy rather than, so to say, complaining about what isn't working.
[36:47] Gerrit: Yes.
[36:47] Martin:
[36:47] Gerrit: Martin, I think that is a subject that is immensely rich that we could continue to explore in a number of additional episodes. For today, is there anything else or should we wrap it up and perhaps go directly to some reflection questions? Yes.
[37:04] Martin: Yeah. I, I have a reflection question already. And, it's directly related to what I had just talked about.
[37:15] Gerrit: Um, so yeah, I would then probably add on, I think first of all, this is really a fantastic question. I mean, if you're listening to the podcast, you can apply it right now, uh, what are the good conditions in this particular movement already? And it also comes back to, I think we said initially something about the purpose and Martin, I think at one point we said, well, yeah, but isn't, isn't that a given, isn't that natural? And I think still many people are so caught up in their daily routines that they don't spend enough time on having clarity about, for instance, what is really my aspiration? And you gave this example of an executive who is in a very senior role, maybe the CEO, and there are obviously expectations from the board, from shareholders. But then, you know, is this really my purpose in life? Or is there perhaps even a deeper aspiration? So taking this moment and think about what is my real aspiration in life?
[38:23] Martin: Wonderful. This is a challenging topic, Gerrit, that we talked about, because the more we speak, the more different perspectives we start to realize. But I think it's a very important conversation to have, both reflecting as an individual leader, but also perhaps a conversation to have as a leadership team.
[38:47] Gerrit: Oh yes, and I think, uh, this is certainly not done sufficiently yet. It's a bit of a, I would say in many organizations, a taboo because we only focus on the results. And, especially when it then comes to this individual level, why, why am I here, um, I think most organizations are not discussing this yet. But maybe this episode prompts people to start this conversation.
Martin, it was wonderful speaking with you. Certainly, that was a reason for me to be grateful.
[39:23] Martin: Thank you, the same Gerrit. Wish you a good continuation of the day.
[39:28] Gerrit: And this concludes today's episode. If you like what we do, please remember to subscribe to Second Crack on your favorite podcast platform. It would also be wonderful if you could recommend our podcast to a friend. And of course, we would love it if you could leave a positive comment or rating. For more insights about our work, please visit our website at secondcrackleadership. com. That's all in one word.
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Bye for now.
