The Surprising Skills for Driving Change — Inner Development Goals Part 6
Second Crack – The Leadership Podcast. Episode 15
This transcript is AI-generated and may contain errors and typos.
[00:00:11] Gerrit Pelzer: A warm welcome to Second Crack - The Leadership Podcast. If you are new to the show, this is where we explore everyday leadership dilemmas and paradoxes, and where we invite you as our listener to self-reflect. My name is Gerrit Pelzer and I'm joined as usual by my long-term friend and business partner, Martin Aldergard. So hi Martin, how are you today?
[00:00:34] Martin Aldergard: Hi, Gerrit. Everything is great today. It's a perfect day to talk about acting and driving change.
[00:00:42] Gerrit Pelzer: Yeah, acting, driving change is the last category of the Inner Development Goals. We had a whole series on that. If you haven't heard those before, you may wanna go back to our, uh, previous podcasts. Um, that was about Being, Thinking, uh, Relating and Collaborating. And now we come to finally Acting and driving change. And what I find surprising and what I really love about the Inner Development Goals is this novel approach. So when we look into traditional leadership models, then we find these classic frameworks. When it, when it comes to acting, it's all about the doing, right? You find aspects like, Results orientation, holding people accountable, having smart goals, delegation follow up and, and this interestingly in the Inner Development Goals or short IDG, this is not mentioned at all. Instead, we talk about four skills and qualities, which are: courage, creativity, optimism, and perseverance. So I, I find this really, uh, interesting and surprising.
[00:01:55] All right. Shall we dive into the, the four skills and qualities, but maybe before we do that, yeah. A quick reminder that if you like our podcast, remember to subscribe on your favorite platform so you make sure you don't miss the latest episodes and subscription is completely free. And it is also a great sign of recognition for our work. And also, we'd like to ask for your help to grow the show. And the best way you can help us with that is by telling a friend or a colleague about it. And also we're curious to hear your feedback or your questions suggestions. So you can email us at hello@secondcrackleadership.com.
[00:02:39] Martin Aldergard: Yeah. And when we are looking at this more classical approaches to driving results and change, as you mentioned, really results oriented, focusing on accountability, goal setting, delegation follow up. I think this is very useful when we lead in a predictable environment and that we understand very well. And it's all about executing plans. The, the journey might be much more of a straight line between the analysis, planning, implementation and results, or like, like at least we might think it's a straight line. Mm-hmm. , but, but of course in the context of a much more complex and unpredictable business environment the iDG model seems to have a lot of promising potential and the where implementation is much less of a straight line and it's more about sustaining the conditions for action and it, it will take sustained action until we achieve the desired outcomes. Yes. And I think these, these, these skills that you mentioned now when we go into them is a really a, a novel approach. Yes. And the first one being courage.
[00:04:07] Gerrit Pelzer: Yes. And according to the IDG definition, this is the ability to stand up for values. Make decisions, take decisive action and if need be, challenge and disrupt existing structures and views. And interestingly, every time I think about courage, I feel reminded of a wonderful biography. I once read about Nelson Mandela and they describe how Nelson Mandela was in an emergency landing in a plane and showed no outward sign of fear. And then Nelson Mandela is quoted with, with, with a definition of courage that courage is not the absence of fear. It's learning to overcome it. And related to this, a long time ago, I read a book by Susan Jefferson. It's called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway. So again, courage is not the absence of fear instead of it, it's experiencing the fear, but then deal with it in ways that are productive. And so if I think about, uh, courage in a, in a leadership aspect, um, how does it show up? And again, we see, according to the definition, number one is standing up for one's values.
[00:05:35] And I think that is becoming increasingly important in today's world where we see so many things going wrong based on what we've done in the past. Um, when we think about. The situation with the environment, climate change, but also what's going on in society. Uh, as a leader, I really need to stand up for my values.
[00:06:00] I really need to stand up for, uh, what's right. And the second element, according to IDG is this making decisions when outcomes are uncertain. And I think you had some thoughts on that as well. Martin. Yeah,
[00:06:18] Martin Aldergard: I, I really like this aspect of courage. Courage is not the absence of fear and linking back to driving change and leading transformation, going into the unknown, the untested environment.
[00:06:35] Right? Of course, as a leader is very scary to feel that you're not in complete control. You do not know how this is going to play out. Of course that is scary and, and we should recognize that as being totally fine. It's going to be a natural part of change. Yeah. But of, of course, this shouldn't stop us from acting and, and many times as leaders, I mean, waiting for better information, waiting for doing more analysis, uh, waiting to make a decision for, for so to say better times.
[00:07:15] That might just put us into even more problems, of course.
[00:07:18] Gerrit Pelzer: And, and, and I think no matter how much information you gather, it's, it's never enough to make the perfect decision. So you have to live with that uncertainty, right? So, so how
[00:07:29] Martin Aldergard: can we overcome this fear, this fear of losing control? And I think, like you mentioned, values and principles I think is also very important tool in that sort to say tactical aspect that.
[00:07:44] When I, when I fear a decision, because I don't know the outcome come back to my values and my principles that has guided me in the past. Mm-hmm. And seek trust in those principles, in uncertainty. I think this, this type of value based or value guided decision making becomes so important. Yeah, and, and secondly, I'm thinking it's so important to involve the team, right?
[00:08:14] If I can use the full potential of my team, all the talent, the passion that we have together, we should find a way forward, right? Somehow. We are going to find a way forward together.
[00:08:29] Gerrit Pelzer: Can I, can I add on that one? Because I feel, so this is then also where we are leaving, uh, so to say the circle of the leader themselves.
[00:08:40] So of course the leader needs to be courageous, but I think they also need to create this environment. Where other people can be courageous. So how do I encourage people, for instance, to to speak up so that I can utilize the, the collective intelligence of the people in such situations? Yeah,
[00:09:02] Martin Aldergard: like, like we, like we spoke in the, in the, in the past episode about the collective intelligence and, and if we have built.
[00:09:12] That foundation in our team, it is easier of course than to take courageous decisions and move on in an uncertain environment and, and also in relation to the team and helping the team to be courageous. I think it's also about being open and honest, asset leader, recognizing the discomfort and recognizing the fear.
[00:09:36] of doing new things and, and, and then helping the team to understand their feelings. Yeah. Yeah. Do, do we have some reflection questions here relating to courage? Uh,
[00:09:51] Gerrit Pelzer: A lot that come to my mind because we had this different dimensions. Right? So coming back to these values, maybe one question can be, what values may I hold dearly in my, my personal life, but I don't necessarily see those fulfilled in my work on a daily basis.
[00:10:11] And then the, the question that results from this is, how can I bring these values into the workplace? And then in general, in terms of courage. Yeah. How, how aware am I actually of my fears and how can I deal with these fears in a productive way? And sometimes what can help sometimes work on this in my coaching.
[00:10:37] And then what we often do is how can I practice this in, in small steps? Small steps.
[00:10:45] Martin Aldergard: Yeah. And then if I can take, yeah, if I can take one. I really like one of your, this reflection questions that you have around in, in the decision making, what is actually the risk? What, what is the worst case scenario here and, and how would I or we be able to handle that worst outcome?
[00:11:08] And I think if we then also together with the team, bring this up into a transparent view and the transparent discussion, we can then much easier, uh, gather the courage to move on.
[00:11:19] Gerrit Pelzer: And Martin, this is a very common coaching question, uh, as when I work with people individual, We all have fears that's natural, but oftentimes the fear is a bit fuzzy and we are always concerned about a potential worst case scenario.
[00:11:37] But then when we look at it deeply, often, we realize that even if the worst case scenario comes true, we will be able to handle it. And that then makes the whole process so much, so much easier. And then, then the last Go ahead.
[00:11:59] Martin Aldergard: I wanted to go to the next, uh, to the next skill already. Yeah. I still, I still like
[00:12:04] Gerrit Pelzer: this, this one question, uh, that is I think also very practical for leaders.
[00:12:11] How can I create an environment where people speak up? So where they either have the courage to speak up or they feel. They don't need the courage. This is a safe environment. Right? I don't need to be courageous to speak up because I, I don't get punished for, let's say a stupid idea. That was just my, my last point.
[00:12:38] Martin Aldergard: Yeah. And I, I think, thank you for adding this in. Uh, this is so important. We, we, we are all humans. We cannot act like these big much guys that have absolutely no fear. And to help people to speak up, both in term of, in term of ideas, but also in term of their feelings. That helps us as a team. Of course. I really like this last reflection question, but creativity.
[00:13:08] Of course in, in, in, in driving change, we need the new ideas. We need to challenge existing ways, uh, or ways of doing things. So creativity becomes still an essential component of driving action and results. So, in the IDG, how, how do you define creativity activity?
[00:13:28] Gerrit Pelzer: In IDG, it's defined as the ability to generate and develop original ideas.
[00:13:37] Innovate and being willing to disrupt conventional patterns. And I would say that creativity and innovation have always been critical for problem solving and for any helping any organization to move forward. Right? But however, when I look at the world's today, I think we also. Creative and innovative approaches to new ways of working.
[00:14:06] And we may see when we, when we look at it on a global level, statistically, I think people have never lived healthier, longer, wealthier. But we can see at the same time that this, I would say prevailing capitalist system build on infinite growth. It's coming to an end on a planet with finite resources.
[00:14:32] Yeah, and we see that the environmental situation, climate change requires new ways of. Living and working. And we see also that, especially I think the younger generation is looking increasingly for, for purpose that goes deeper than just financial wealth. Right? And at the same time, We need to feed more than 8 billion people on this planet, right?
[00:15:02] And we need to find ways to tackle the number one UN sustainability goal, which is, uh, eliminating poverty, right? So I think when we, when we look at, um, creativity. We, we really probably need radical new ways of working and, and looking at the world. And this is where I see creativity and courage going, uh, hand in hand.
[00:15:29] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:30] Martin Aldergard: And it's so interesting. All this we know so well, what are the problems we know so well looking into the long term that we need new approach. Again, what is stopping us to be creative and looking from a corporate perspective? I think many times this dilemma around the paradox or dilemma between leaders needing or feeling they need to be productive.
[00:16:01] Mm-hmm. versus being creative. It's like a contradiction between being productive, doing things efficiently, getting stuff done. And being creative. And of course I, I would say most leaders and as a manager, we are quite good in being productive. We get things done on time and on budget, but really leading creative work, finding these new ways that you're talking about, I, I think this, this really needs a totally different skill set.
[00:16:36] Like, uh, experimenting with new approaches and, and we don't even know they will work out. I mean, that goes against my manager brain that's saying I got to be productive with my time and my resources and, and finding the balance between being productive and being creative. I think that is a, is a tough nut to Crack.
[00:17:00] Uh, I think perhaps in this, I mean, we always talk about the conditions, right? But how can we then both, both for myself as a leader and for my team, look into the conditions? How can we be more creative? And I think, first of all, I think it's, it's much less about myself as a leader that needs to be the one that has all the new ideas, right?
[00:17:26] It. It's, it's about how I can help my team to have new ideas and new approaches. Right. And, and perhaps that starts by, by expecting and believing that everyone in the organization is a creative and, and can be creative. Yeah. If, if we let them . Right. And, and I think this then also really leads to. Me as a leader, when the team has new ideas, I must really actively support ideas.
[00:18:04] Yeah. I cannot start off by saying, oh, great idea, but we tried that last year. It didn't work. How many new ideas do I get in my next meeting? Then? No new ideas. Yeah. So allow for experimentation and give people time. And, and possibility to test ideas without putting judgment on those ideas until they speak for themselves.
[00:18:29] Either fail or
[00:18:31] Gerrit Pelzer: succeed. Yes, and and I think that is a, that is a good point. When things fail, also, how do we deal with it? Are people then punished for the outcome that nobody could predict or do we have an attitude of where we look at? Let's look at what went wrong and why it went wrong, and what can we now do differently.
[00:18:54] But I think that is, again, it comes back to what you said so nicely, how do I create the conditions for creativity? And if people make the experience, oh, you know, yeah. They, they always say, uh, we should try something new. But then if it goes wrong, We get punished. Yeah. So that is also how, how does an organization deal with what we sometimes call failure?
[00:19:21] Martin Aldergard: Yeah. And, and as a leader, I need to be so aware of which hat am I using? If I'm using my productivity hat actually than dealing with testing new ideas and they fail, of course that is going to be a disaster. I need to use the right hat. I, I also think another condition that's really interesting is this, this.
[00:19:46] Then how can I provide as a leader the right amount of freedom , because I think it's obvious we cannot micromanage creativity. Ideas need freedom. People need freedom in order to, to come up with new ways of thinking. We cannot box them in too much. But of course, if you give too much freedom, it's, it becomes a total mess.
[00:20:10] All ideas going all over the place, and there is no one direction. So I need to be very aware as a leader to provide freedom for creativity, but also provide sufficient direction in term. This is our vision. This is the long term direction that we're heading. For instance, this is the external context.
[00:20:30] These are the trends around us that we are trying to respond to. Uh, I can provide the direction by helping people understand how does customer needs develop, right? But trying to micromanage ideation, , of course, that directly leads to failure. And, and, and the last point I I come across a lot in my experience as a consultant is the, the first reaction when, when there's a problem solving or there is, there is, there is a need, is let's have a brainstorm about this.
[00:21:03] But , I think, I think we have, so we have almost too many ideas in the organization already. It's a matter about how to tapping in effectively to those ideas. And then actually how to implement and test them.
[00:21:18] Gerrit Pelzer: Yeah, that's, that's very true. And, and I expected this comment on the brainstorming. I know that's one of your favorite topics.
[00:21:25] Um, .
[00:21:27] Martin Aldergard: Yeah. We need to kill
[00:21:28] Gerrit Pelzer: brainstorming. You know, another perspective that I would like to bring in is, while on one hand I. Started the conversation, um, around radical new ideas. I also wanted to highlight that oftentimes there are these limiting beliefs that individuals have to say, oh, you know, I'm, I'm not creative.
[00:21:49] No creativity at something for, for artists or for, for the genius. But more often than, Creativity is not only about the completely new original idea, often it is, and I think Steve Jobs used this expression, it's about just connecting the dots. How can we apply what we have already used here? How can we apply it there?
[00:22:17] Um, So, or you know, something that, um, has worked in a completely different industry. How can we apply this to our, uh, industry? And, um, then as adults we are often also restricted through perfectionism or fear of failure. And when we see children play, you know, they're immensely creative and sometimes we just need to tap into the child.
[00:22:46] In ourselves to, to be a bit more creative. So that was my, my last thought on this.
[00:22:52] Martin Aldergard: But, but, but we know how easy is that in a corporate environment and how, how bad, how, how quickly that can go bad and, and give you a, a, a very strange reputation , uh, going outside the box. So, of course, like you already said, courage and creativity, I think is really closely related to each other.
[00:23:15] Yeah.
[00:23:18] Gerrit Pelzer: Martin in terms of reflection questions, I don't have much of just the last one that I was thinking about. Um, for those who think I'm, I'm, I'm just not a creative person, they can look deeply and say, well, what if I look deeply? What evidence might I find that I actually am creative? What things have I done differently recently?
[00:23:43] Or then what could I do differently today? Any, anything else in terms of reflection questions that you wanna add?
[00:23:54] Martin Aldergard: I, I had the reflecting on what conditions does my team need to be creative and. How can I, as a leader, support my team when they have an idea to actively encourage that idea, to nurture it more?
[00:24:15] And, and guide that idea from ideation into giving a chance to experiment with these ideas and then learn it doesn't matter. It's a success or a failure. And learn from that. And then that nurturing, growing ideas like a gardener rather than trying to manage the ideas. So, What conditions does my
[00:24:36] Gerrit Pelzer: team need?
[00:24:37] Yeah, it's, I like that a lot to be creative. I'm glad you brought it back there. Back to this element. Yeah. So we come to item number three, optimism, which is, according to the IDG definition, the ability to sustain and communicate a sense of hope. Positive attitude and confidence in the possibility of meaningful change.
[00:25:04] And when I hear optimism, I think for me, one thing that is really important to highlight is that optimism does not mean denying the bad aspects of a situation or downplaying what whatever is, um, negative. So I think we can be optimistic. and realistic at the same time. The the optimist focuses on what's good.
[00:25:34] The pessimist sees first what is negative, and the optimist does not mean to be overly positive, not denying the bad things, not, not, uh, unrealistic, and, and when, when. I just imagine such a situation in the context of leadership. Imagine this, this optimistic leader who, like we said, uh, um, communicates a sense of hope and positive attitude and confidence in the possibility of meaningful change.
[00:26:08] Uh, imagine, in contrast, a leader who, who is pessimistic all the time, only sees the problems and worries. Nobody wants to follow such a leader. In fact, such a person may probably never get into a leadership position, right? But then imagine this, this confident leader, optimistic leader who acknowledges the problems and difficulties, but has the belief that this situation can be improved.
[00:26:37] This belief is, is, uh, contagious, isn't.
[00:26:42] Martin Aldergard: Right. And I think this, this, I think first I, I really reacted to this word optimism because it's, it's as being an engineer, as as a trained engineer, I'm, it's not in your vocabulary. Optimism is, it is not really in my vocabulary, but actually optimism is this really interesting characteristics.
[00:27:07] It's like this tendency to expect positive outcomes. That even we have a problem and shits happen, but as a leader we can really look beyond that immediate situation and it really focuses on, on, you know, what would be possible to do here and to get us out of this situation. So it's really this optimistic, uh, for what leaning problem solving focus.
[00:27:34] So I, I thought about three points here about how to set a condition for the
[00:27:40] Gerrit Pelzer: team to be open. I'm curious to hear
[00:27:42] Martin Aldergard: those and, and, and this, the first is this to be open to, to both way thinking both positive and negative because, We know naturally when there is problems we're, we're wired to look for negative aspects to, to try to avoid dangers, but we need to be aware as leaders to also look for the positives.
[00:28:01] We need both sides of a, a problem. And, and the second point is, I want to pick up what you said as well. Emotions are really, really contagious. If we can project this optimism, the possibilities. That positive emotion, that energy of that spreads and of course the other way around. Yeah,
[00:28:23] Gerrit Pelzer: and I think in this context also, when I think in terms of crisis, typically people look at a leader for direction and if the leader panics, the whole organization will panic.
[00:28:36] If the leader remains optimistic, despite coming back to acknowledging the difficulties in the situation, then the whole organization can become more optimistic and, and work towards the positive outcome. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. .
[00:28:53] Martin Aldergard: And I think, yeah, definitely. And, and I, I had the third point here. It's really in the end of the day, then also acknowledge what can we do something about and what we cannot control.
[00:29:07] And also then help my team to understand those differences. So we steer the energy of the team to where we can have an impact. Yeah, and like what, what we spoke about, uh, about, uh, creativity and courage in the end, perhaps here, it's also all. Communication with speaking about the bad and the good, the possibilities and the fears.
[00:29:37] Yeah. And acknowledging what we can do something about and what we can
[00:29:41] Gerrit Pelzer: change. Yeah. And Martin, while I was, uh, joking about you as an engineer, it actually reminds me also of my former corporate career. I'm by education, I'm a chemist, and I worked for quite some time in chemical manufacturing. and in such an environment you are trained to look at what can possibly go wrong, because if something goes wrong, uh, you can cause , uh, severe damage, people might lose their lives.
[00:30:11] And I realized how this conditioning, um, How should I say? It's spilled over into my personal life to always look into what can possibly go wrong, but I've noticed and also how other people interpreted this as negativity. Yes. And this, this leads me perhaps to my first reflection question, to also look into what is my either natural or nurtured tendency?
[00:30:43] Am I more of an optimist or. A pessimist and how is my behavior perceived by others? And so if I'm leaning more towards the pessimist side, is, is my perception of situations, how I look at situations, is it appropriate and can I look at. Positive outcomes, potential outcomes while remaining realistic. And then for those who are already more optimistic, um, does my optimism allow for a.
[00:31:21] The concern of others to be taken seriously. Right? Because I think we have all experienced those people who are so overly positive and then other things, but you know, why can't you see my problem with that? Are you ignoring this? So it comes also back to a bit of a balance for me.
[00:31:40] Martin Aldergard: Yes. And I think this, this is lovely.
[00:31:44] I, I don't have something directly to add as another reflection question. I. If we can do this also as a more open, transparent dialogue with the team exploring what are the, what are the reasons for optimism to be positive? What are the reasons for being negative? And together we can create a more complete picture, a more true picture of what's actually going on here.
[00:32:13] Uh, because we all have our biase. Should refer. And I think optimism really, I think leads us into to, to perseverance, right? Because if I don't have optimism, if I don't have this, this belief that we can find solution, how can I keep on working on it? Yeah.
[00:32:33] Gerrit Pelzer: Yeah. Right, and, and perseverance. I, first of all, maybe again, the definition, the IDG definition is the ability to sustain engagement and remain determined and patient.
[00:32:47] Even when efforts take a long time to bear fruit, and the first time I saw perseverance explicitly mentioned in this model, I, I had to smile because we both worked with one client and helped them develop a new. Vision for the company and they wanted to add perseverance into their vision statement. And so apparently, you know, this organization realized the, the importance of perseverance.
[00:33:17] Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And in this,
[00:33:20] Martin Aldergard: and it was real. Yeah. It was. It was really a natural park. Yes. It was not something that was painted under because it sounds nice and today perseverance is perhaps much more in, in fashion, in trend, but it came out something really, really natural for them. Yeah. And it was a result of their past experience.
[00:33:43] Yeah. Ha. Having to. Perseverance when they built up this plant. And this really, this is the new start of a huge, of a huge plant.
[00:33:53] Gerrit Pelzer: Yeah. And in preparation for this episode, I looked up another definition for perseverance, and that is from a course I did with one of my coaching teachers, Angela Bird.
[00:34:07] So, this is a shout out to you! I still remember this, quite some time ago. We defined in this course that perseverance means achieving what you set out to do despite obstacles, barriers, setbacks, continuing on despite storms, not giving up easily, and exercising resilience in the face of adversity and persistence is shown to be the biggest predictor of people's success in.
[00:34:43] It's more important than IQ. And related to perseverance, persistence is, uh, grit, which is based on an individual's drive and desire for a particular long term goal. Um, and coupled with. Powerful motivation and Martin. This reminds me so much . 12 years ago I left the corporate world and started my own business as an executive coach, and that was a huge step for me.
[00:35:14] And so I wondered then what does my plan be? And I come back to the, the motivation and the values, and I. . I wanted this plan A, becoming an executive coach. I wanted this so much that my plan, plan B became. Plan B is making plan A work. Yeah, so in other words, not really seeing any other options. Made me more commitment.
[00:35:43] Commitment, committed to making things work, building up this, this, this grit and, and perseverance. You actually found this wonderful Dilbert cartoon, which is, of course, we, we can't really show on on a podcast, but would you like to comment on that?
[00:36:04] Martin Aldergard: Yeah. I, I, I think this is, is, is to me, the nutshell, the dilemma around perseverance is, or persistence about greatness.
[00:36:12] And, and, and hearing this deliberate cartoon, the boss is saying, persistence is the key to success. . And, and then in the next piece of the cartoon that says, oh, the other key to success is knowing when to quit and. And, and to me this puts it in a nutshell, the dilemma of perseverance.
[00:36:34] Gerrit Pelzer: Yes. Yes. Because on the one hand we say perseverance, might be the biggest contributor to success, but at the same time, it cannot guarantee success.
[00:36:48] Yeah. Mm-hmm. . So, um, yeah, there, there can be a situation where you need to call it, Yeah,
[00:36:57] Martin Aldergard: and, and this to me, again, links back to courage as well. It takes a lot of courage to keep on pushing, but it also takes a lot of courage. The same guys. We have pushed hard enough. Yeah. Let's try something else. Yeah.
[00:37:11] Yeah,
[00:37:11] Gerrit Pelzer: yeah, yeah. And also, uh, values and motivations. Right. Which leads me to my first reflection question. Uh, I think every time in our life, whether that's personal life, whether it's as an entrepreneur in a startup or leader in an organization, we always go at some point in time, we go through a tough.
[00:37:34] And then one of the re reflection question is, what keeps me going when times get tough? Uh, what are the values? What is the motivation underlying this endeavor? And when I feel like giving up, What resources can I tap into? This can be my, my personal resources. It can be friends, support structures, but then also in terms of, let's say again in the leadership role, talking about the team.
[00:38:07] What does my team need to be perseverance. And for me that comes back to, again, remaining realistically optimistic. So taking people's concerns into account, not something like, you know, ah, don't worry about it, you know, we'll manage it, we'll get through it. Um, and then also in this context, also taking individual differences into account.
[00:38:32] Cause people are different, which then may lead into. Coaching behavior for leaders, right? Helping others overcome their limiting beliefs, helping them develop confidence in themselves and not, not necessarily having to push them right building, building up the confidence.
[00:38:56] Martin Aldergard: I, I, I like a lot of these points. What really sticks with me is also this question about what keeps me or us going mm-hmm. , and for me, the answer like lies in the question of why are we doing what we're doing? Mm-hmm. , why is that important? Linking back to the, the purpose. If the purpose is important enough, I think it will always keep us going as a team.
[00:39:26] Gerrit Pelzer: Martin is a very elegant way of closing the loop for the Inner Development Goals. All these five categories with the 23 skills and qualities. So this concludes then the whole series of episodes on the Inner Development Goals, and it concludes today's episode. Again, if you like the podcast, remember to subscribe on your favorite platform and if you would like to help us grow the show, we will really appreciate it if you tell a friend about it post on social media and leave a positive comment or rating more info about Martin and myself and our work is also on our website.
[00:40:09] That's secondcrackleadership.com and also we would be very happy to hear your feedback, your questions, your comments. The address for that is hello at secondcrackleadership.com. Bye for now and until next time!
