[00:00:00] Gerrit: A warm welcome to Second Crack - The Leadership Podcast. If you are new to the show, this is where we explore everyday leadership dilemmas and paradoxes, and where we invite you as our listener to self reflect. As always I'm joined by my very good friend and business partner, Martin Aldergard. So hi Martin, how are you today?

[00:00:31] Martin: I'm fine. Hello Gerrit, this is a great day to record another episode. 

[00:00:38] Gerrit: I, I hope it is, and we will continue talking about the Inner Development Goals. So we had the first two categories on Being and Thinking, and now we lead over to Relating. So what I really like about the Inner Development Goals is that it's built in this sequence. It starts with yourself as a leader. It's then about how you relate, how you connect with other people, and then ultimately how you act together to achieve whatever your goals are. Mm-hmm and Martin, what, what comes to your mind when we talk about relating and relationships? 

[00:01:18] Martin: I'm just thinking about myself as a manager and as a leader, how easy it is to just cut straight to the action, to the results that I want to see from the team. And really underestimate the importance of building the relation before I can expect results from the team. And, and I mean, my background is an engineer and I've always struggled to, to invest in the relationship. I always want to get to the action to the results, to, to fix the problem now. I can see the solution, and I just want my team to get it, and get to work on it. 

[00:01:59] Gerrit: I would agree that that engineers can be very bad at building relationships, and as a chemist I know what I'm talking about. But I, I see this both sides. So you talk on one hand about you didn't pay as much attention as I would say, as you're doing today to relationships. Uh, but you also see this, this importance. So what, what was keeping you from this? Was there anything blocking you? 

[00:02:25] Martin: Yeah. When I'm, when I'm reflecting on, on how I look at relationships today, and why I quite frankly still might be struggling with it and continuously need to work on it, is I might think that if I'm getting too close to people, if I'm investing too much of my emotions to build a relation with them, if there's a problem, I need to give tough feedback later on, that's going to be a headache for me. How can you care about somebody and then be very tough with them at the same time. That's like this contradiction in my head. 

[00:03:00] Or what if I feel I need to keep a certain distance to me and my team to just stay in control. What if my status and my power as a leader is reduced because people know me too well. It feels safe if I'm keeping a little bit secret, I'm keeping a little bit distant. Of course then I'm staying more in power.

[00:03:21] And, and what if I'm getting stuck with a person and I need to invest a lot of my time in that person's, uh, problems and needs and issues, and I'm not getting out of it. So I, I think reflecting on this quite frankly, I mean, on one side we might say we are here to get a job done, we are all professionals. We're not here to getting into relationships with our colleagues. So I think this is a mindset that at least I'm as a leader, I need to work with that and I need to find ways around it. Because of course I understand now I get zero results if I have zero relationship. 

[00:04:07] Gerrit: Mm. Yeah. I think that that summarizes this very, very nicely and I mean, we, we had one whole episode on, uh, relationships with relationships at work, or why, why leaders tend to, you underestimate the importance of relationships. And I think you, um, explain this quite clear and it's interesting for me, because even though I've known you for what 12 years or so, um, I have not known you when you were still in the corporate world. So I think I'm seeing a very different Martin in these days. And while I was listening to you, I felt like, yeah, of course, I know what, what are the four skills and qualities we wanna talk about today and I was already in my head deconstructing each of the statements you made and, uh, prove you wrong. 

[00:04:59] Martin: And I think this is where. to continuously keep developing as a leader to work on improving your ability to create relationships in an effective way. I think here, the IDG framework gives us very good guidance because it points out to these four specific skills and abilities that, that we can focus on how we, how the connectedness, how we build connections, uh, humility, empathy, and appreciation. I think if I practice those skills, it just helps me to overcome my, my blocks in my mindset. So even if I know I have those blocks, I keep focusing on those skills and I just do it and I will be more effective in building a good relationship.

[00:05:55] Gerrit: Beautiful. And, and maybe this can then lead over to going to these four skills and qualities. Maybe before we go into this, the quick reminder for our listeners, if you enjoy the podcast, please make sure you subscribe so that you don't miss any of the latest episodes. And of course it will help us a lot. If you leave a positive comment or rating. If you tell a friend about it so that we can grow the podcast.

[00:06:20] All right. So we have these four skills and qualities in the, you know, development goals, connectedness, humility, empathy, and compassion and appreciation. Shall we start with, uh, connectedness?

[00:06:32] Martin: Yeah. So, so what does this mean now in the, in the big picture of things Gerrit. 

[00:06:40] Gerrit: Yeah. So if I look at the original IDG definition, having a keen sense of being connected with, and, or being part of a larger whole, such as a community, humanity or global ecosystem, and, uh, for me as somebody who's living in a, in a Buddhist environment, what comes immediately to my mind is this idea in Buddhism of, well, sometimes we call it no-self or inter-being, .Um, this may sound to some people rather, what should I say isoteric, because we can look at ourselves and say like whatever, but I am this individual entity, right. I have this body and there is my body and there's the environment and we are not immediately connected. But then where, where do you actually draw the board? And I was thinking recently when, when I was preparing for the session. I'm breathing in. And of course the air that I'm breathing in is, is not me, but then in my lungs, The oxygen goes into my bloodstream and becomes part of the blood. And well, you know, is, is blood, is that me or is that something else? So for me suddenly this border is not so clear anymore. And, uh, I exhale carbon dioxide and this carbon dioxide may be taken up by a plant and a tree grows and I, I eat things and they become part of myself. So this what some people might consider an esoteric. Buddhist concept of inter being is actually also proving with the, what should I say, very cold Western scientific approach, because we are not, let's say maybe when we look at the, the earth as one ecosystem. Yeah, of course we see everything is connect. But still we can see ourselves in isolation, but we know also that we spoke in our, I think it was just in the previous episode where that we, we spoke about sense making and we make sense together.

[00:08:52] And if we wanted to go now back to our neurobiological level. So in our interaction, we can take our discussion right now. So, you know, you say something and that sparks a thought in my mind, that means there's a neurobiological process behind it. And our interaction is changing me and I simply cannot exist in, in isolation. And, um, I think we can also relate to this, how we connect with really nature. I was recently, um, went through a wonderful resort and how I live in Bangkok, where we have this concrete jungle, and I could sense the connection. Then when I was in this nice garden, I could sense the connection with nature and how it immediately, um, calmed me down. 

[00:09:42] Martin: Why is it important for us as leaders to be aware of this connection? I mean, what difference does it make for me as a leader?

[00:09:54] Gerrit: Yeah. Well, I think we could look at it from two different angles. One is in this current discussion about climate change for instance, and various crisis to see like, well, we are part of this whole. Whatever we do has an impact on this whole little planet that we share. But then there is this other aspect, we may look at our work as just work, as you said earlier, very task oriented, may be even very transactional, right? People get paid to do the job and that's it. But at the end of the day, we are dealing with human beings and human beings need to make this connection, they inter-are, they exist together. And making this connection with people at work is immensely important. 

[00:10:50] Martin: And of course, like you spoke in the previous episode about relationships, just, just, uh, the health benefits of having good relation, being connected, feeling connected or immense.

[00:11:03] I'm thinking about also from the, from the systems perspective, when we are driving change in a complex environment. As a leader we are part of the system. We cannot look at ourselves to be an observer, an analyst of the system, and then finding out solutions on how to change the system. We are ourselves a part of the system. This means we are connected with the system and for me practically, this means that as a leader, I need to strengthen the quality of my connections with the system, this means the organization in the picture I can see. And if I take it to a very basic level, what I'm seeing of this on a, on a very, very basic level is, is just how leaders connect with their organization. I have an example of a large change project that I was part of. And as part of this project, we brought senior executives out doing road shows, meeting people on the floor of the production floor. And of course, in some companies in some countries this is done every day. But in this particular organization in this country, this was something quite new. But we understood that to be successful in this transformation leaders would have to connect with people first. Yeah, but what happened was when we prepared this road show and we, this means this very senior executives actually going to the canteen, to the locker rooms, to the shift change stations, to talk and interact with people. In the beginning, everybody had their guards up, they were watching their backs, they came and you could see that. It was very difficult to create a connection there. And we had then to take a step back and work with the leaders to say, what is your mindset when we walk to meet people, how can we reduce the sense of distance? How can you open up and become more approachable? Yeah. And then next time, when the lead walked into the room, the atmosphere was different because the mindset of that leader was different when she walked into the room and she acted with calmness, she was listening, she was inviting, her guard was down, and suddenly the tone of the conversation changed. Mm, there was still a lot of critical feedback. Yeah. But there was listening established because the connection had such a much higher quality in that instance. And I think this was to me a very vivid picture of the importance to build connections.

[00:14:11] Gerrit: Yeah. It's funny while I was listening to you I was immediately reminded of a experience I had in my previous corporate job. We had a major reorganization and our new boss at this time, I think he was my boss already. Uh, but he, he became a bigger boss. Uh, this is shout out to Christoff in case you're listening. He arranged then with, with this whole team, an offsite. Exactly as you said, initially maybe people were a bit guarding each other, but then when you had, uh, also besides the actual professional meeting, then you would have dinner together, maybe you would have a drink together and you got to know these other people on a personal level.

[00:14:58] So you build this connection and what was the effect suddenly? Uh, people then at work also had a different connection, so it was easier to approach somebody else and say, look, um, I have a problem. Can you perhaps help me with this. And I think that was a, was a very smart move. And then I've seen this in so many other, uh, occasions where we may think it's all task related, but having this connection, this human connection with people helps so much more on the task level. Uh it's it's it's really huge. Yes. Yes. 

[00:15:37] So. How do we make this connection? I have a very, very practical example I think is when we observe people shaking hands. I mean, we may, we do it not so often anymore since COVID, but I think that is really a great opportunity to literally make. Physical connection with our bodies, but then also going beyond this. And I see, oftentimes let's say you go to a networking event and sometimes there are these people, I'm sure you have experienced those. They reach out mechanically with your hand. And while they're shaking your hand, they're already looking to the next person. That's not a connection, but when you feel there are people who are interested. In you, um, they're looking you in the eyes, they offer you their full presence. Then you are making, uh, a real connection and I've, I've often seen people, um, who have severe difficulties doing that for, for whatever reason. , 

[00:16:42] Martin: The reflection question for me here is: reflect on what's my purpose and my intention? What's my mindset? When I'm for instance walking into an interaction with other people. Yeah. So that I get a chance to reset it if I feel it's, it's not right to be open and inviting, approachable, curious, interested.

[00:17:06] Gerrit: Yes. That's wonderful. And reflection questions that come to my mind is first of all. What does connection feel like? What does a good or great connection feel like? Mm-hmm yeah, and I think immediately of let's say the best friend or, you know, Martin, my conversations with you. Yeah. I feel I can trust you. I can be myself. I don't need to put on a show. Um, when you ask me how I am, I, I really feel you are interested in me. Uh, you care about me. And then this brings me to a place where I am also able to be my best self. I don't need to be guarded. I get into this stage where I can think more clearly where I don't need to protect myself. So what does a great connection actually feel like? Not how do you make mechanically? Yeah. And then perhaps reflection that you can make at the end of your working day. Um, how, how well did I connect with people at work? And reflect on this and then perhaps you can set an intention for the next day. Is there anything I can do differently to build even stronger connections with people? So which links back to what you said, being intentional about making these connections. Right. 

[00:18:31] Martin: And this then leads us to the second skill or the second quality- humility. And perhaps this is the foundation of, of lowering your guard? To be more approachable as a leader is to have a basic approach of humility. Let's let's check back with IDG, what they say about it. 

[00:18:55] Gerrit: Their definition is: Being able to act in accordance with the needs of the situation, and now comes the wonderful part, I love this. Without concern for one's own importance. I find this, this is really fantastic. And, uh, it, it makes me interestingly, when I think of humility, the first people that come to my end are perhaps spiritual leaders like the Dai Lama or my favorite teacher Thich Nhat Hanh. Martin, can you think of any corporate role models because I think I'm not so sure how much humility we find there. 

[00:19:35] Martin: Yeah. And I'm using the same example as, as we talked about in our episode about the humble leader, the previous episode, and again, this, this, this big corporate CEO that is the CEO of a, of a global company of a multinational. And, and he stands up in front of his, his, his executive leadership team and tells them basically, I need your help. I've I've worked in only this company for my whole life, because this is a family company originally and you know, so much more than me. Mm-hmm, extremely vulnerable, extremely humble in the way he says it.

[00:20:19] But the paradox here is, I also see this person as being extremely driven and tough when it comes to numbers and results. Mm-hmm mm-hmm . He has the ability to be humbly confident and still very strong. There is no trade off in his mind. There is no contradiction between being humble and being strong and confident. And I think this is really important to highlight

[00:20:51] Gerrit: yes. Yes. This resonates so strongly with me because I think it's often misinterpreted if I show humility and I still love this very simple explanation that you gave. How, how I know that somebody is humble. Well, one, one aspect of this is to be able to say, I don't know, I don't have all the answers. And many people I'm, I'm sure are afraid of doing this because they are concerned they will be perceived as weak. But this example, this very practical example that you are giving, um, is very clear that there is no contradiction. You can be humble and that doesn't keep you from being strong and, and confident mm-hmm

[00:21:36] Martin: So Gerrit how can I build this skill, this, this ability to be humble? 

[00:21:43] Gerrit: That's a good question. I think part of it is really when we look at the bigger picture to really think of how, how important am I really, uh, the, the world is not just spinning around me, I'm not the center of the universe. I'm just one of about 8 billion people, uh, on the planet. And of course I want to have an impact and I can have an impact of course. Um, but I think it comes down to maybe if you wanna look also at the rational side, if I am humble, I will make it easier for other people to connect with me. Because as a boss, suddenly I also show up as, as human, I will be, um, able to bring out the best in other people. So really embracing the idea that being humble is not weakness at all. I would actually rephrase that. And I, I, you know, I, maybe this leads already to my first reflection question. Mm. And it's a bit, maybe a bit provocative intentionally: Am I confident enough to be humble?

[00:22:53] Martin: Mm. I love that because that sounds like a contradiction in the question already. Yeah, that is a great, great reflection question.

[00:23:04] Gerrit: And at the same time, um, if I look now again at the organization as a whole, there's also the question around, well, how about actually our culture? Does our culture allow people to be humble and say things like, I don't know? Cause I think can think immediately of many organizations I have worked with where the attitude is, everybody must demonstrate how tough they are. Uh, I know everything, I have all the answers. So maybe if I'm in a leadership role, I also need to look at the overall organization. And then first of all, start as a role model and create this culture where people, I'm repeating myself here, are allowed to be human. 

[00:23:51] Martin: Yes. And where everybody sense they are good enough as they are. Yes. They bring strength, of course they have weaknesses that they can develop, but we are accepted, appreciated and good as we are. Then everybody can focus on driving forward instead of having the guard up and defending themselves the whole time.

[00:24:17] And I think this also leads us into the third, the third skill, because this is really connected for me with being humble. When I'm humble, I'm also open to be empathetic and to be compassionate. So, so what does this mean? And why does it matter Gerrit, empathy and compassion? 

[00:24:41] Gerrit: Yeah. I don't know how to give a short answer to it. I mean, when we look at the latest, um, leadership fads that you can see on social media and business magazines, uh, we see many articles that leaders need to show empathy, and I, I fully agree with it, it's not a fad. But I think what we often overlook is again, all this biology behind it. So we, we talk very often about the importance of emotions and that emotions provide the energy for action. And so it links then to building the connection. Can. either as a leader or whatever, my whatever situation I am. Can I get a sense for what is going on in the other person. What emotions are they experiencing? And especially when I'm in a position of power as a leader, how does my behavior then impact the emotions of the other person? Am I with my behavior, you know, if it's just, I'm raising my voice. And, and this can then easily evoke a fear response in the other person. Am, am I getting this, am I getting this, that I'm triggering this fear in the other person? And do I understand that this is not really helping it just, um, evokes then the survival, the, the fight or flight response? So this person will shut down, will do everything to, uh, protect him or herself. Yeah. So empathy leads is, is critical to understand what is going on in the other person and then adjust accordingly. And I think when we then talk about. Compassion, that's the next step, so empathy is about getting a sense for what the other person is experiencing, what they're feeling and compassion is, if I sense the other person is suffering is that I want to, um, ease their pain. And I mean, uh, there is so much that comes to mind. One is, again, it is one of the concepts in Buddhism. So without neuroscience, Buddhist have known it have known it for already for two and a half thousand years. They talk a lot about compassion and loving kindness, Meta and Garuna. 

[00:27:11] The other experience is that I made personally how my emotions impacted me at work. One example is that three years ago, my, my father passed away and I had a workshop scheduled in India. And then I decided to, um, go to this workshop and run it. And luckily it was a workshop I had done a couple of times because the emotion that I experienced during this time was, not surprisingly, sadness. And sometimes it was like, I was almost like disconnected from my body where I saw myself standing in the meeting room and talking almost robotically because I had done it so many times, but a huge part of me, um, was still occupied with this very strong experience of yeah losing my father. Yeah, so we can't put the emotions out of the, the workplace. And I think it is making the link now back to leadership. I think leaders need to have a sense what is going on in a person. They are not coming, uh, coming back to the transactional, uh, leadership model ,they don't just come like a robot to work and do what they're supposed to do. They have a life outside of work and what is happening. At home with their loved ones with their family or whatsoever can impact them at work. And I think a leader needs to understand this show empathy, eventually compassion to ease the pain, and that continues then building this connection. Right. So if I work for a boss who has empathy for me, who is compassionate, wow you know, don't I want to then also give my best for this boss. 

[00:29:01] Martin: Mm-hmm mm-hmm I think this, this mutual reciprocity, um, mm-hmm is, is playing out very practically. In my experience being empathetic and being compassionate, it doesn't take a lot of time off from, from doing the actual work so to say from an engineering mindset. It doesn't take much at all. It's it's a moment of caring, it's some words, it's a question, sometime it's only a a connection with the eyes and my face, showing that I understand what you went through, that you had a tough morning. And, and I can think just reflecting back on myself as well. I don't need much understanding from others then, to jump into my, so to say, non-emotional state and getting back into my rational professional state. As long as people have recognized that I had a tough morning for instance, or like in your case, you, you had a sad loss from family. Because I am able to distinguish also between what are issues outside my work that might still impact me as long as somebody recognizes that and that recognition does not take very long. Yeah. 

[00:30:23] Gerrit: And, and let me add here, we don't always need to talk about these major disasters, like somebody dies or somebody's going through divorce. It can be also these little, everyday things at work. So for instance, somebody has, uh, put a lot of effort in working on a project or whatever it was, and something happened outside their control and the whole work was in vain. And then that we not just go back and say like, Hey okay, you know, let's move on. And say like, yeah, I feel sorry for you. I'm sorry that this happened, and I I've seen how much effort you put into it. But yeah, that makes a huge difference. Then we can say, yeah, but now, you know, this is done, let's move on, but it makes a huge difference if somebody shows that they notice what you have experienced there. Yes. 

[00:31:13] Martin: That little, little touch. Yeah. Yes. And, and this brings us to the fourth topic, I think very nicely, but any reflection questions first Gerrit before we move on. 

[00:31:24] Gerrit: Yes, indeed. Because it is strongly related to appreciation. So one thing that I have observed, some people really struggle. Maybe engineers and chemists, really struggle with empathy in terms of having a sense for what the other person is experiencing emotionally. And that often happens to people who have disconnected from their own emotions. And I don't mean this really in any disrespectful way, like people from us who look at the world from a scientific or engineering perspective. They may over time if they don't pay attention to it, disconnect from their own emotions.

[00:32:08] And so my first reflection question is here: How aware am I actually of my own emotions? You can, if you have trouble with this, look at some simple models, we spoke about Paul Brown's model of eight basic emotions: fear, anger, disgust, shame, sadness, joy, excitement, love, trust, and startle. You can just use this as a framework. Say like, you know, when am I experience, how am I feeling right now? And then once I've done my homework on this, then I can go back to: How good am I at having a sense what other people are experiencing? And that's not only at work, it's very good to also practices at, at home with the people you live with. 

[00:32:59] Martin: I'm building on this. I'm reflecting just very simple: How often do I switch on my empathy antenna?

[00:33:07] And now going to the, to the last skill here, uh, appreciation. Which means relating to others and to the world with the basic sense of appreciation, gratitude and joy.

[00:33:22] Gerrit: Yeah. And I think we can move through this life with so easily with this lack of appreciation and gratitude. Um, there are so many things we take for granted. Can let's say starting from a very personal level, like health. So how easily complain do we complain about all the things that are not, not perfect yet. And what else we need to do and want to achieve in order to be happy in the future. But it, um, actually again, science shows as well that when we just take a moment and appreciate what's going on, ah, you know, I'm still alive and, and my body is functioning and I, I can have this conversation with Martin and, uh, you know, my, I have eyes and I can see, and, you know, it's, it's, there are so many things that are, that are, that are good, that we don't necessarily appreciate, like, you know, turning on the water in the shower in the morning. My goodness, how many people don't have access to fresh water. And I open up the fridge and get my breakfast and we take this for granted. It's it's it's, it's wonderful that we can do this. And then if I link this to people, it's again the same. And I'm, I'm coming back to this example at home. How easy is it to take the people who are around us every day, take them for granted. And then one day, we don't express our appreciation anymore. And then we are surprised when your, your wife or, or husband, suddenly packs her, her or his bags. Yeah. 

[00:35:03] Martin: Taking this straight into the workplace. I think we are typically, so problem focused as leaders, so we might focusing too much on fixing problems. Yeah. And, but how does that then look from an employee point of view? My boss only comes and talks to me when there is a problem. What feeling do I get from that? Am I appreciated? No! He doesn't see, or she doesn't come to talk to me 99% of the time when I did the good stuff. He only comes and talks to me when something, when I mess up or there is a problem. Of course I don't feel appreciated. I get the sense that, that my boss takes me for granted. Of course I'm here on my free will. I'm going to quit if you don't appreciate my work more than this, and I think this is what's happening. And I think as a leader, it's not a bad intention. I think it's just as leaders sometimes we are so focused on the task on the problem, we forget the people. It's not a bad intention. 

[00:36:13] Gerrit: People, people are just too busy. I mean, when I see my, my clients, yeah. It's just crazy how busy they are. And then it's just so easy to, you know, just you tick off something off the list and then, okay, what's next? What do I need to do next? And tomorrow is again, a busy day and we, we don't take this moment to stop and I think it goes both ways. First of all, appreciating what we have accomplished as individuals mm-hmm , but then also the people we work with and, and sometimes it can be just this little thing that whatever, you know, somebody, um, submits a report and you say, yeah, Thank you. Yeah. And we don't always have to, it's not these big celebrations it's really these small daily interactions. Yes. Where you express that you don't take this, this person for granted, I really appreciate, yeah, you and what you're doing here.

[00:37:05] Martin: I think this is super important. I think it's, it's not the big wins that are underappreciated. It's the daily work, yeah, that just works, that is what might be underappreciated. I think giving people appreciation and telling them: Hey, you are doing a great job and I see that, even if they just do their normal daily job, we don't need to worry that people will start slacking or that they will actually make less of an effort. I think in my experience, people are doing more of an effort to just keep on doing what you're doing with even more motivation. 

[00:37:45] Gerrit: Exactly. And that reminds me of the introduction that you gave when you talked about your own experience, where you spoke about things like, you know, you want to keep this professional distance. But it's actually not true that keeping the distance or putting pressure on people is what keeps them going. Uh, exactly. As you say. When we actually appreciate people, it doesn't lead to them. Yeah. You know, everything is fine, my boss is happy, so I can, I can take the foot from the gas pedal. No, it is actually what, assuming that you have hired the right people, yeah, it is actually what is the fuel for motivation.

[00:38:24] Martin: Yeah. And all these four skills here that we have been talking about they're really interconnected. We strengthen the relationships by connecting well, by showing humility and acting as a humble leader. We use empathy and compassion, caring. Yeah. And then we kind of wrap it up in a way with the appreciation of the efforts that people are making. And strengthening now how we relate with people, then of course makes us more effective to drive collective action. And I think that is the really big picture. Because of course at the end we want the action, we want the results as leaders. 

[00:39:11] Gerrit: Uh, well, I wanted to jump in quickly before we wrap it all up, was my reflection thought on the appreciation. And, uh, I think what, what is a good reflection question for leaders is: How do I show my appreciation at work? And, um, what might I take for granted? And when I say, what might I take for granted, I mean this in terms of tasks that we take it for granted that people are doing certain things, but also then the people themselves, the human beings. And I now recall there was a HR leader who I once met and he was speaking at an event and he said something many years ago and it's still very vivid for me. He said, you know, we often look at, uh, employees, they get paid to come to work, but they bring something very, very valuable to work. And that is the time of their life. Right. Yeah, and we should never take it for granted that, uh, people spend the most valuable resource they have, the time in their life, they spend them with us and, and working with us.

[00:40:28] Martin: That is beautiful Gerrit 

[00:40:31] Gerrit: So how, how do you wrap things up? 

[00:40:34] Martin: I think I wrapped it up from my, my perspective already. Um, so why don't we talk a little bit about our coming episodes as well?

[00:40:44] Gerrit: Yeah, we have a bono episode coming up. We have the first, wow, the first bonus episode. You know, it's, it's a bonus, nobody has to pay for it, it's free like all the other episodes. And we have our first guest on the show-Raquel Ark. And we will talk with her about the superpower of listening at work for leaders. And, uh, then we will continue on our regular schedule. We will continue with the IDG. So we had the first two episodes focusing on the self with Being and Thinking. Today was Relating, and then our next episode will be on Collaborating before we finally go to Acting. And that's it about the upcoming episodes.

[00:41:32] Martin: Yes, it was great talking to you Gerrit today! 

[00:41:35] Gerrit: Martin, likewise, always great to have this show with you. And this concludes then today's episodes. Again, if you like the podcast remember to subscribe on the platform of your choice and if you would like to help us grow the show. We will really appreciate it, we will show our appreciation to make a connection with you, if you tell a friend about it, post on social media and eventually leave a positive comment or rating. Then there's also more info about us and our work on our website www.SecondCrackLeadership.com. 

[00:42:11] Bye for now, be well and until next time.